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Naib
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:14 pm    Post subject: First Distro casualty of Systemd? Reply with quote

http://www.linuxadvocates.com/2013/04/developer-dissatisfaction-looms-with.html

Quote:
Fuduntu Founder +Andrew Wyatt returned fire with this volley:

ConsoleKit + UDev + Syslog + DBus + Polkit + Sysinit + this + that. RedHat Enterprise Systemd is the best product we've ever been force fed. We are facing being forced to integrate it at Fuduntu because it's replacing so many core tools now that it's impossible to continue the project without it.
It seems fairly understandable that smaller Distro Teams are indeed resource-strapped and so cannot muster the resources to refactor their programs to by-pass the new systemd project's major structural changes. The volume of work necessary to avoid systemd will effectively result in forcing the Developers to do just what Mr. Wyatt describes--be forced to use systemd. I would add that the other alternative would be to 'end of life' a distribution.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The more standardized we become, the less work distributors have to do to support our system.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
The more standardized we become, the less work distributors have to do to support our system.

diversity is the spice of life.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what happened to small apps doing one thing and one thing only?

what happened to interoperability?

systemd is a cancer. A solution in search for a problem. Maintained by guys who want to incorporate all and everything - and don't mind breaking things or lying.

Thanks a lot. No interest.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I switched to systemd-only some time ago and it is not bad, it's linux after all why not use all features offered by the kernel? Smaller distro can profit from systemd as well it is a lot easier than develop complex init scripts from scratch (usually they are just copied from debian or redhat anyway ....). Openrc is standardization just like systemd.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

...

In addition to this, the move of the Linux world to systemd has caused a problem for Fuduntu as it has become a required thing for many programs, but we do not use it. Together with the GTK issue, Fuduntu has reached an impasse. To move forward would take quite a bit of time and manpower, neither of which can be supported.

The team discussed several options and, ultimately, voted to end-of-life Fuduntu Linux. This decision was not made lightly but, ultimately, it is was the best option. In its current state, Fuduntu would be broken when we tried to move forward.

...

Andrew, the founder and lead developer of Fuduntu, announced his plans to retire after the final Fuduntu release. Andrew will be missed and his hard work and dedication is appreciated by all. While he will not be serving in an official capacity, Andrew will be serving as an advisor to the leadership and team of the new distro.

The plan for the new distro is to rebase it against another well-established distro.


http://www.fuduntu.org/blog/2013/04/15/fuduntu-team-meeting-held-on-april-14-2013/
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does systemd have an office suite yet?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:lol:
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonnevers wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
The more standardized we become, the less work distributors have to do to support our system.

diversity is the spice of life...

...that makes QA testing a complete disaster.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
jonnevers wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
The more standardized we become, the less work distributors have to do to support our system.

diversity is the spice of life...

...that makes QA testing a complete disaster.

44 years of UNIX didn't survive on monolithic retardation.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
jonnevers wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
The more standardized we become, the less work distributors have to do to support our system.

diversity is the spice of life...

...that makes QA testing a complete disaster.

I didn't include that ellipsis in my comment. don't editorialize :lol:
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just installed systemd in order to understand what is so bad about it. It... works. Memory usage is about the same as with openrc and system boots and restarts faster (I don't care much about startup time, but that's always good). I had to learn a new way to configure a couple of daemons, but editing a .service file is not worse or better than editing /etc/conf.d/whatever (unlike all that hal XML crap *shudder*).

I'll stay with systemd for the time being; don't see any reason to go back to openrc.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fran wrote:
I've just installed systemd in order to understand what is so bad about it. It... works. Memory usage is about the same as with openrc and system boots and restarts faster (I don't care much about startup time, but that's always good). I had to learn a new way to configure a couple of daemons, but editing a .service file is not worse or better than editing /etc/conf.d/whatever (unlike all that hal XML crap *shudder*).

I'll stay with systemd for the time being; don't see any reason to go back to openrc.
So it doesn't improve on anything and requires you to learn a different way to do it. Sounds... unnecessary.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Fran wrote:
I've just installed systemd in order to understand what is so bad about it. It... works. Memory usage is about the same as with openrc and system boots and restarts faster (I don't care much about startup time, but that's always good). I had to learn a new way to configure a couple of daemons, but editing a .service file is not worse or better than editing /etc/conf.d/whatever (unlike all that hal XML crap *shudder*).

I'll stay with systemd for the time being; don't see any reason to go back to openrc.
So it doesn't improve on anything and requires you to learn a different way to do it. Sounds... unnecessary.

Yeah, I don't see many advantages over openrc. I don't see any disadvantage other than having to learn something new, either. Since I had to learn to use it in order to try it (was bored :D), I'm leaving it installed.

But I can see the benefit for the developers: in the long run it will probably be easier to support something used in every other distro. Upstream should provide the .service files, instead of having to create and mantain init.d and conf.d files for every daemon in portage.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fran wrote:
Yeah, I don't see many advantages over openrc. I don't see any disadvantage other than having to learn something new, either. Since I had to learn to use it in order to try it (was bored :D), I'm leaving it installed.

But I can see the benefit for the developers: in the long run it will probably be easier to support something used in every other distro. Upstream should provide the .service files, instead of having to create and mantain init.d and conf.d files for every daemon in portage.
Disadvantage seems to be absorbing too many functions. I prefer the traditional UNIX approach, rather than the gigantic blob approach. Maintaining init.d & conf.d doesn't seem like that much of an actual problem. I'm also not a fan of things which appear to be solutions looking for a problem. I'm not trying to convince you, just explaining why I can't see using it. Solaris SMF has some pretty nice advantages (over older init systems), but it adds some complexity too, which can be a pain.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
44 years of UNIX didn't survive on monolithic retardation.

And it's support rate amongst third party vendors has been quite high. And by "quite high" I mean "extremely shitty."
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
And it's support rate amongst third party vendors has been quite high. And by "quite high" I mean "extremely shitty."

And yet rag tag unwashed neckbeard hippies spread out over the whole internet can develop an entire ecosystem by themselves without said crapware. So who gives a fuck?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
And it's support rate amongst third party vendors has been quite high. And by "quite high" I mean "extremely shitty."

And yet rag tag unwashed neckbeard hippies spread out over the whole internet can develop an entire ecosystem by themselves without said crapware. So who gives a fuck?


Rag-tag neckbeards and respectable software engineers are both capable of making excellent software, but it doesn't come from following the Unix philosophy. It comes from lots of users, lots of bug fixing, and lots of time. The Unix philosophy is just a set of guidelines, nothing more.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mardok45 wrote:
The Unix philosophy is just a set of guidelines, nothing more.

It's more than 'just a set of guidelines', it's an objectively proven development model which has and continues to exist ever since the creation of time-sharing multi-user systems. The monolithic crapshoots of commercial software are already showing signs of catastrophic failure and they haven't been around half as long. Why would we want to displace the UNIX model with that, when it's objectively terrible methodology which doesn't scale, which is incompatible and anti-competitive by design?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's possible to architect a system where each component does one thing and does it well, while not having eighty different possibilities for each part.

EDIT: I quite frankly don't care. systemd is, in my opinion, a giant mess with its requirement for a web server. That's just absurd. But other things it does quite well, and it's a pleasant administration experience.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
Mardok45 wrote:
The Unix philosophy is just a set of guidelines, nothing more.

It's more than 'just a set of guidelines', it's an objectively proven development model which has and continues to exist ever since the creation of time-sharing multi-user systems. The monolithic crapshoots of commercial software are already showing signs of catastrophic failure and they haven't been around half as long. Why would we want to displace the UNIX model with that, when it's objectively terrible methodology which doesn't scale, which is incompatible and anti-competitive by design?

The point I'm trying to get to is:

1. If you don't follow the Unix philosophy, it doesn't automatically mean your software is going to fail.
2. Monolithic crapshoots still manage to run strong due to lots of money and users (Windows, Linux, X11, etc)
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fran wrote:
Yeah, I don't see many advantages over openrc. I don't see any disadvantage other than having to learn something new, either. Since I had to learn to use it in order to try it (was bored :D), I'm leaving it installed.


The only "real" disadvantage is the journal feature of systemd, that replaces syslog, it is cumbersome and not so useful as for example rsyslog, AND mandatory so installing a syslogd alond systemd results in a duplication of service. The cron facility instead is so poor (they just exposed some internal functions) that is useless, it could be improved in future. udev and dbus are 'auxiliary daemons' of systemd, so their code is now included in systemd but they are more or less the same as before.
udev was linux specific so it is not a big deal having it included in a linux-specific thingy like systemd, dbus IIRC was a gnome thing that later become a freedesktop standard, again something introduced by linux. The other unix, like macosx, android do not make use of gnome or kde, Solaris is pretty much dead, *bsd can still use the old standalone dbus implementation or fork it and develop a standalone version.
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Last edited by erm67 on Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:35 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

systemd is like Obama; should be obama-d
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somebody needs to rewrite Godwin's law.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
systemd is, in my opinion, a giant mess with its requirement for a web server

Can you elaborate on that? Which webserver is required?

erm67 wrote:
The only "real" disadvantage is the journal feature of systemd, that replaces syslog, it is cumbersome and not so useful as for example rsyslog

Hm, I don't see any problems with it from the little time I've used it, but I never needed syslogd for anything more than "tail /var/log/messages" :) (something replaced by journalctl -xn40). Cron is more featureful, of course, and you can use it instead; but for my needs systemd is enough, so one less daemon.

Mardok45 wrote:
2. Monolithic crapshoots still manage to run strong due to lots of money and users (Windows, Linux, X11, etc)

Yep. I don't see many people complaining about Linux, and it IS a gigantic blob. As long as it works well, who cares if it was developed as a single package or 10 different ones.

Anyway, I still don't think systemd has too many features (yet). Maybe that will change in the future.
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