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Tool's "Holy Gift" ; Greatest hidden gem in metal history?
Yes!
50%
 50%  [ 2 ]
No!
25%
 25%  [ 1 ]
I'm too stupid to appreciate complex music!
25%
 25%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 4

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Muso
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:59 am    Post subject: Holy Gift Reply with quote

Tool's Holy Gift is based upon a Spiral sequence reordering of their tracks from the album Lateralus. Not only do they fit together perfectly when mixed in this fashion, but the time signatures of the pieces fit perfectly with this sequence and form the 16th integer of the Fibonacci sequence, which the title track of the album also incorporates.

Holy Gift
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the gift :)
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BonezTheGoon
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's interesting to me, but not as interesting as the Fibonacci drumming sequences in the individual songs, IMO.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maths is not music.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Maths is not music.

Critics are not musicians.

Or even: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_and_mathematics


Last edited by Prenj on Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UstkuKsIuTQ
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maths still is not music. That's incidental.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Maths still is not music. That's incidental.

Is it? You made the universe and know for a fact? :lol:
Maybe you should ask yourself what is math.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe you should ask yourself what is music ;)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
Maths still is not music. That's incidental.

Is it? You made the universe and know for a fact? :lol:
Maybe you should ask yourself what is math.


the answer is 42
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

music is not math. Music is broken, as it can be shown here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_(music)

math on the other hand is unbroken, sublime, and with a depht music will never be able to achive.

You can create hypercomplex numbers. Or things like j.

But there are no negative sounds....
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everything is math. Anyone who says otherwise simply does not understand that fact.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
But there are no negative sounds....


You've never listened to rap then.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BonezTheGoon wrote:
Everything is math. Anyone who says otherwise simply does not understand that fact.

Math is an extremely expressive symbolic abstraction that can be applied to (or used to describe) almost anything, but it's just an abstraction, not reality. Relationships that conform to interesting mathematics are still relationships, not math. Although it's "mathematical", the acceleration of a falling body is acceleration, not math. So I think I'd rephrase your statement to be "math is in everything", as opposed to "everything is math".

It's also not exhaustively descriptive, in that our experience of reality is not the same thing as reality (as has been discussed here before with respect to determinism). Even if math can theoretically be used to fully describe "me" at a given moment, it can't be used to describe my subjective experience at that moment. You can snapshot my state down to the spin of my quarks (or whatever), but that still doesn't describe how the song I was listening to made me feel.

There is math in music, and math has a lot to do with what we find aesthetically pleasing about it. We enjoy the order, in the same way we find symmetry visually appealing. Similarly, we find math appealing that is in some way elegant. Math is not music, and music is not math, but they have a lot to do with each other.
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Last edited by Bones McCracker on Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:16 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
But there are no negative sounds....


You've never listened to rap then.

:lol:
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
But there are no negative sounds....


You've never listened to rap then.

:lol:


++

Took the words from my mouth!
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
BonezTheGoon wrote:
Everything is math. Anyone who says otherwise simply does not understand that fact.

Math is an extremely expressive symbolic abstraction that can be applied to (or used to describe) almost anything, but it's just an abstraction, not reality. Relationships that conform to interesting mathematics are still relationships, not math. Although it's "mathematical", the acceleration of a falling body is acceleration, not math. So I think I'd rephrase your statement to be "math is in everything", as opposed to "everything is math".

It's also not exhaustively descriptive, in that our experience of reality is not the same thing as reality (as has been discussed here before with respect to determinism). Even if math can theoretically be used to fully describe "me" at a given moment, it can't be used to describe my subjective experience at that moment. You can snapshot my state down to the spin of my quarks (or whatever), but that still doesn't describe how the song I was listening to made me feel.

There is math in music, and math has a lot to do with what we find aesthetically pleasing about it. We enjoy the order, in the same way we find symmetry visually appealing. Similarly, we find math appealing that is in some way elegant. Math is not music, and music is not math, but they have a lot to do with each other.


I've really been working on brevity as a goal. I accept your "math is in everything" correction as a suitable, yet still brief, upgrade to my original post.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
There is math in music, and math has a lot to do with what we find aesthetically pleasing about it. We enjoy the order, in the same way we find symmetry visually appealing.


Yep. The structure of music can be described mathematically (usually - but there are also some pretty out there works).

Our audio detection machinery - technically known as "ears" - has to obey the rules of physics, and audio is a physical phenomenon, so maths has to play some kind of role.

However, maths and physics is the medium not the message. Music is a language, not of words and ideas but of feeling. It's quite an extraordinary thing really that vibrating air can carry little qbits of emotional meaning.

Most likely this came about (like most things to do with humans) as a result of living in social groups. It's imperative that we can understand the emotional state of other members of the group if we don't want to get murdered or do want to get laid. The pitch and rythmn even of primitive vocalisations would be a vital clue to emotional state, along with other signals such as body language or being bashed on the head with a rock (struck out again damnit). If we hadn't needed to communicate specific ideas and concepts we might have evolved a simple musical language instead. We'd just sing to each other, like whales. Or wolves (wolves do actually howl together in harmony, not just a random noise).
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
But there are no negative sounds....
Sure there are. Two which cancel each other, resulting in negative sound where there once was sound.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
There is math in music, and math has a lot to do with what we find aesthetically pleasing about it. We enjoy the order, in the same way we find symmetry visually appealing.


Yep. The structure of music can be described mathematically (usually - but there are also some pretty out there works).

Our audio detection machinery - technically known as "ears" - has to obey the rules of physics, and audio is a physical phenomenon, so maths has to play some kind of role.

However, maths and physics is the medium not the message. Music is a language, not of words and ideas but of feeling. It's quite an extraordinary thing really that vibrating air can carry little qbits of emotional meaning.

I agree. You add an interesting insight here in describing music as a language. We have multiple levels of abstraction. The physical vibrations that stimulate our auditory sense organs triggering nerve impulses is a physical phenomenon. We perceive it as sound. When it exhibits certain orderly patterns, we find it aesthetically pleasing. Much of the reason we find it aesthetically pleasing seems to have to do with orderly patterns and relationships in the sounds which are mathematical in nature. Also, the vibrations themselves can be modeled (and reproduced) mathematically with enough reliability to fool our senses.

What you're getting into, though, is that it's also a medium of communication. I'm not sure it qualifies as a "language" per se (paintings also communicate, but is painting a "language"). I think language is a subset of communication, with certain characteristics. It's clear, though, that music communicates. Communication takes something (in the general sense, some "experience", which might be an idea, a though, a feeling, etc.) from the mind of one person, transmutes it into a transmittable form, transmits it through some medium (and possibly noise), and then transmutes it back into an experience in the mind of another person.

One might mathematically model and even reproduce the sound, but that's not the same thing as mathematically carrying out the transmutation of the experience into sound, or reversing that process. Making music out of an "experience", and interpreting music to recapture that "experience" (or just experience whatever), is not mathematical in character.

mcgruff wrote:
Most likely this came about (like most things to do with humans) as a result of living in social groups. It's imperative that we can understand the emotional state of other members of the group if we don't want to get murdered or do want to get laid. The pitch and rythmn even of primitive vocalisations would be a vital clue to emotional state, along with other signals such as body language or being bashed on the head with a rock (struck out again damnit). If we hadn't needed to communicate specific ideas and concepts we might have evolved a simple musical language instead. We'd just sing to each other, like whales. Or wolves (wolves do actually howl together in harmony, not just a random noise).

You were doing good up to that point, where you let your commie brainwashing take over. Aural communication occurs between species and outside of social groups as much as within, particularly among simple species. Witness a cat hissing at a dog. Witness dogs barking at each other or monkey screeching at each other (most of the noises they make at each other are hostile or competitive, not cooperative, while cooperative social interaction is communicated non-verbally through kinesics and touching).

Similarly, both anthropology and archeology suggest that early human music wasn't for friendly social interaction but attempts to commune with nature (specifically, to communicate with the spirits/Gods) or, later, to scare enemies in battle and communicate hostility in much the same way as growling and posturing (or an ape beating its chest or thumping on the ground). In a very general sense, humans are cooperative and competitive, in roughly equal measure. Primitive humans would need audible communication as much for one as the other. You commie.
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