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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
They have not been eroded in my former country nor in this one.


Apart from the press being muzzled

Incidentally Labour pushed for this & the definition of 'press' is somewhat loose.

And PC Brigade style "hate speech" laws written in such way that they actually forbidden individuals from speaking the truth if it offends a racial or religious group other than Christians or complains about the policies of the present government . It should never be illegal to question or complain about laws or governmental regulations. It should never be illegal to speak the truth, ever (except where individuals have voluntarily agreed to non-disclosure).

The term "hate speech" and, more recently, "bullying" (applied outside the context of child behavior), are more examples of left-wing authoritarian collectivist thought control through linguistic manipulation. Speaking the truth or complaining about immigration policy is not "hate speech", and vehemently arguing for what you think is right is not "bullying".
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juniper
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
They have not been eroded in my former country nor in this one.


Apart from the press being muzzled

Incidentally Labour pushed for this & the definition of 'press' is somewhat loose.

And individuals being muzzled, being forbidden to speak the truth if it offends a racial or religious group other than Christians. It should never be illegal to speak the truth, ever, unless you've voluntarily agreed to keep something secret.


Indeed, people have been charged in britain for offensive speech. Is that new? if not, it isn't eroding.

Nowadays, however, it is complex, because the internet has complicated things. The law is behind on this piece of technology.

I personally have always said that speech should be protected in pretty much all circumstances (with the possible exception of a direct call to violence). Offensive speech? I can take anything you got, and expect everyone else to.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:

Also, I think it's tragic that you don't care whether you children will enjoy the same freedoms you have or not. This is the same kind of selfish, deliberate, head-in-the-sand ignorance that has allowed Global Warming to become a the crisis it is.


Whoa. I never said I don't care. I just wouldn't equate love with it. You can be the biggest freedom fighter and a terrible dad, and vice versa.

But in any case, you don't really have the monopoly on freedom. Being american I understand that you think you do, but you don't.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
And PC Brigade style "hate speech" laws written in such way that they actually forbidden individuals from speaking the truth if it offends a racial or religious group other than Christians or complains about the policies of the present government . It should never be illegal to question or complain about laws or governmental regulations. It should never be illegal to speak the truth, ever (except where individuals have voluntarily agreed to non-disclosure).

The term "hate speech" and, more recently, "bullying" (applied outside the context of child behavior), are more examples of left-wing authoritarian collectivist thought control through linguistic manipulation. Speaking the truth or complaining about immigration policy is not "hate speech", and vehemently arguing for what you think is right is not "bullying".


no disagreement.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:

Also, I think it's tragic that you don't care whether you children will enjoy the same freedoms you have or not. This is the same kind of selfish, deliberate, head-in-the-sand ignorance that has allowed Global Warming to become a the crisis it is.


Whoa. I never said I don't care. I just wouldn't equate love with it. You can be the biggest freedom fighter and a terrible dad, and vice versa.

But in any case, you don't really have the monopoly on freedom. Being american I understand that you think you do, but you don't.

Two strawmen in one post. Impressive. Or maybe I should just assume I wasn't articulate enough.

I didn't equate it to love, I said if you're not doing what you can to protect the rights they'll have as adults, then you don't love them (or are ignorant or in denial).

I never said Americans have a monopoly on freedom, or that freedom isn't eroding rapidly here. I'm saying that your precious Canada and Britain don't have such a monopoly either, and have worse erosion going on in some areas (no assassinations or torture going on yet, but obvious erosion of free speech and various other rights to assert or protect one's self; big-time sheep-herding and PC Brigade in government).
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:

Two strawmen in one post. Impressive. Or maybe I should just assume I wasn't articulate enough.

I didn't equate it to love, I said if you're not doing what you can to protect the rights they'll have as adults, then you don't love them (or are ignorant or in denial).p


ok, so you are saying it is a necessary condition for love, not sufficient. I take it you don't have kids.

But your narrow view of gun rights = freedom isn't ubiquitous. I share your view on free speech, but not on gun rights. Despite your guns, you people are now likely the most likely to be killed by their own govt in the west (save crazy places like italy etc). But this has always been true re death penalty.

Quote:

I never said Americans have a monopoly on freedom, or that freedom isn't eroding rapidly here. I'm saying that your precious Canada and Britain don't have such a monopoly either, and have worse erosion going on in some areas (no assassinations or torture going on yet, but obvious erosion of free speech and various other rights to assert or protect one's self; big-time sheep-herding and PC Brigade in government).


In canada the problem is the conservatives. They have taken a truck and run over free press, transparency and a number of the watch dog institutions that keeps the govt in check.

Britain is a bit weird. It doesn't have a constitution like the US or Canada, or an established supreme court. So, the model of - rights violated -> supreme court -> decision isn't here.


Last edited by juniper on Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
They have not been eroded in my former country nor in this one.


Apart from the press being muzzled

Incidentally Labour pushed for this & the definition of 'press' is somewhat loose.


concerning erosion, the biggest threat to free speech here are the age old libel laws. There has been an enormous push to reform them, but they haven't gone through.
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