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genstorm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By now, you should have figured out the oversupply of guns as a major problem. Solution: Throw even more guns into schools?
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BonezTheGoon
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
so you take out the teacher first. Now you have to guns to work with. Awesome. Masscre the class, ammo low? No problem, another teacher with a gun is nearby. One shot later, you have again plenty of ammo to continue your killing spree....


Show me one such story that isn't completely fantasy.

After you do that I will show you ten times the number of actual events where a responsible citizen ended a conflict with a firearm.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
By now, you should have figured out the oversupply of guns as a major problem. Solution: Throw even more guns into schools?
Oversupply? If there was an oversupply, they should cost less.
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genstorm
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
genstorm wrote:
By now, you should have figured out the oversupply of guns as a major problem. Solution: Throw even more guns into schools?
Oversupply? If there was an oversupply, they should cost less.

You know, that oversupply as in: "meh, let's break into [perfectly law-abiding] mommy's weapon cabinet and teach 'em a lesson of my own'.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, you mean undersupply of personal responsibility.
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Bigun
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Oh, you mean undersupply of personal responsibility.


++

I'm going to have to start locking my guns up here soon myself. Another month or two I'm going to have a crawling baby on my hands.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a Chicago mother of eight children who became a CNN Hero nominee for her work trying to keep kids away from violence. wrote:
"Hearing about this baby -- I was so outraged. It just is so beyond," she said. "I will stay outraged but the problem is that people in our community are not speaking up, they are not speaking at all. We are not vocal enough. We're too silent."

but
Nation of Islam Minister Louis Farrakhan wrote:
“The Second Amendment has no relevance to the black community in this sense,” he said. “All your weapons are illegal and you’re using them like a savage people.”
,

Bigun wrote:
pjp wrote:
Oh, you mean undersupply of personal responsibility.


++

I'm going to have to start locking my guns up here soon myself. Another month or two I'm going to have a crawling baby on my hands.

Exercising personal responsibility is not the solution, authoritarianism is.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bigun wrote:
pjp wrote:
Oh, you mean undersupply of personal responsibility.


++

I'm going to have to start locking my guns up here soon myself. Another month or two I'm going to have a crawling baby on my hands.
I'm assuming you think that's a Good Thing, so congrats!
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
pjp wrote:
genstorm wrote:
By now, you should have figured out the oversupply of guns as a major problem. Solution: Throw even more guns into schools?
Oversupply? If there was an oversupply, they should cost less.

You know, that oversupply as in: "meh, let's break into [perfectly law-abiding] mommy's weapon cabinet and teach 'em a lesson of my own'.

That's not a "problem of oversupply" any more than reckless driving is a problem of cars not being constrained to <50 bhp, or than binge-drinking is a problem of a failure to ration alcohol.

What is wrong with people's brains when it comes to this issue? It's like there has been so much brainwashing about it that people can't even replicate their own sensible thought processes from other domains and their minds just hit a big government-printed GOTO statement to doublespeak land.

The problem here is not that mommy has a gun in her cabinet, but that little Billy does not feel an over-riding inhibition against hurting dozens of innocent people. Guns or no guns, this will manifested one way or another if not addressed.

The reason it's happening is because we're teaching our children, in so many ways, "This what angry men do, and it's pretty fucking awesome and admirable, actually".


Last edited by Bones McCracker on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
or than binge-drinking is a problem of a failure to ration alcohol.
On a related note, I'm looking for Doomberg to try a legal drinking age for sugary soft-drinks. Maybe >=68, at which point the death panels won't care.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:

So that's bad? Reducing the number of children who get massacred is bad? This is what you are saying. And your alternative is what? Something completely ineffective? You're like somebody arguing that we shouldn't bother to put seatbelts in our cars because you're still going to get hurt in a crash. I say put a cork in it unless you actually have a better idea that will actually work, rather than some inane pipe-dream.


No, it's not bad. But you did see the little logical insertion I made, right? that GIVEN someone is going to walk into the school with a gun, you want the entire US army there. However, the probability of that given goes way up if you flood the system with guns. My idea is not to reduce the defense capabilities of law abiding people, but to reduce the offensive capabilities of criminals.

Quote:

How does somebody "upgrade" from what the Anders Breviks, James Holmeses, and Timothy McVeighs of the world are already doing? Self-defense does not cause an "arms race", it's a basic human right. I'm all for making it harder for criminals (violent offenders) and the insane (people who are actually a danger to others) to get guns, but that's not going to put an end to this or "solve the problem" in any sense of the word. The real causes must be addressed, and people like you are part of the problem, by refusing to even think about the real causes.


Use your imagination. How do you upgrade from a car bomb? I dunno, grenades and more bombs. Now, you state that you are "all for" making it harder for criminals to get guns, yet the only proposal from gun advocates are more laws. As you all point our frequently, criminals by definition break laws. So, how will that help?

And don't give me the bull of "people like me" aren't willing to think about the causes. There are a plethora of causes, all of them which need to be addressed. Poverty, culture of violence and, the big fat elephant in the room that you are unwilling to address by your very own admission, access to guns. You have your head in the sand if you don't think that is one of the causes (or facilitators).

Quote:

Furthermore, if you're going to invest energy in solving the world's violence problems, why not focus on what's really a problem? How about authoritarian collectivists killing an average of 10 million of their own people a year over the past century? How about Europeans perpetrating a 2,500 year reign of violence and terror, of constant exploitation and virtually non-stop war, on the entire planet?

This is nothing but domesticated sheep being tricked into bleating for more sheep-dogs to snap at their heels, rather than growing a pair of horns and living free like they were meant to.


yeah. Have I said those shouldn't be addressed? and point the finger where it rightly belongs, america is in that category as well.

Quote:

The problem here is not that mommy has a gun in her cabinet, but that little Billy does not feel an over-riding inhibition against hurting dozens of innocent people. Guns or no guns, this will manifested one way or another if not addressed.


why do you keep dancing around the issue? You don't think that Billy's mother's gun is part of the problem. Billy could be the angriest guy in the world, but if all he has is a twig or a knife, he isn't going to do much harm. There are TWO problems. Billy lunacy and the fact that he can get a gun in under a minute.
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BonezTheGoon
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:58 pm    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
. . . My idea is not to reduce the defense capabilities of law abiding people, but to reduce the offensive capabilities of criminals. . . .


It is not possible to do the latter and avoid the former.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
...mindless repetition of the same crap...

You're the one "dancing around the issue". You just keep hitting that authoritarian-programmed GOTO statement to doublespeak land. Rational people do not, in spite of all the studies to the contrary, believe that banning guns reduces violence, while ignoring its real causes. You should engage in some self-examination regarding this.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

using your argumentation is like saying 'we will die anyway, so antibiotics are just a waste of time' or 'lets eat pure pork fat and nothing else'.

Is there violence even without guns? Yes.

Is it possible to kill douzends of people in a couple of minutes with just a knife? no.

So - ban guns. Because they make it easy.

And since the gun loving USA is also one of the most violent western states (if not the most violent state) the argument that gun ownership prevents violence/crimes has been shown as absurd and without any basis in reality.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Bigun wrote:
pjp wrote:
Oh, you mean undersupply of personal responsibility.


++

I'm going to have to start locking my guns up here soon myself. Another month or two I'm going to have a crawling baby on my hands.
I'm assuming you think that's a Good Thing, so congrats!


Yeah, she's not far from crawling, she's nearly able to sit up on her own.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
Is it possible to kill douzends of people in a couple of minutes with just a knife? yes, yes, and yes.


Fixed.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
juniper wrote:
...mindless repetition of the same crap...

You're the one "dancing around the issue". You just keep hitting that authoritarian-programmed GOTO statement to doublespeak land. Rational people do not, in spite of all the studies to the contrary, believe that banning guns reduces violence, while ignoring its real causes. You should engage in some self-examination regarding this.


how many times do i have to say that we should address ALL causes, not just the ones that don't stop you from having a gun.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bigun wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
Is it possible to kill douzends of people in a couple of minutes with just a knife? yes, yes, and yes.


Fixed.


total dead: 8, 0, 4. since 2001. is that the best you can do? the first is a tragedy beyond anything. I think though japan should really follow the americans lead and allow for mass guns in the system. that will solve these problems.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:36 pm    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

BonezTheGoon wrote:
juniper wrote:
. . . My idea is not to reduce the defense capabilities of law abiding people, but to reduce the offensive capabilities of criminals. . . .


It is not possible to do the latter and avoid the former.


what if solving the latter helps the former?
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BonezTheGoon
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your ideal about disarming the bad guys is about as realistic as Jesus coming back thousands of years later to save us all and herald in peace for all eternity.

It's like you don't realize that there is no putting the top back onto Pandora's box here.

Humans fight, maim, and kill one another. This isn't new, it pre-dates guns by quite a lot.

Prior to guns the most skilled and strongest humans ruled over the weaker. Guns level that playing field quite a bit, I'm not the first to say it but women should be the biggest gun advocates as it's really the only chance they will ever have for anything approximating "equal" destructive power against a man.

Get over the tool, it isn't the problem. Blame the humans who are responsible and get over your fear of a tool.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:04 pm    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
juniper wrote:
...mindless repetition of the same crap...

You're the one "dancing around the issue". You just keep hitting that authoritarian-programmed GOTO statement to doublespeak land. Rational people do not, in spite of all the studies to the contrary, believe that banning guns reduces violence, while ignoring its real causes. You should engage in some self-examination regarding this.


how many times do i have to say that we should address ALL causes, not just the ones that don't stop you from having a gun.

You keep hitting that same GOTO statement, aborting your thinking processes, and repeating the same failed arguments: no scientific studies show that anti-gun legislation reduces violence or has any other beneficial consequences. Meanwhile, it's just another form of authoritarian restriction of individual liberty (and in the U.S., it happens to directly violate a specifically enumerated rights of citizens).

Europeans, who are the most violent, abusive, trouble-making and war-starting civilization on the face of the Earth, have shown time and again they are the last people anybody should listen to about any issues of morality, so put a cork in it. The defenselessness and spread-legged-ness of various European states have repeatedly been direct causal factors in wars. (And Canadians just don't matter, because they're just a vestigial appendage of the U.S.. and Britain)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BonezTheGoon wrote:
Your ideal about disarming the bad guys is about as realistic as Jesus coming back thousands of years later to save us all and herald in peace for all eternity.


we've got a lot of bad asses in britain. I am glad most of them don't have guns.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:

You keep hitting that same GOTO statement, aborting your thinking processes, and repeating the same failed arguments: no scientific studies show that anti-gun legislation reduces violence or has any other beneficial consequences. Meanwhile, it's just another form of authoritarian restriction of individual liberty (and in the U.S., it happens to directly violate a specifically enumerated rights of citizens).


we have this before. I disagree, and so do many others. You are one of those people who are willing to talk about absolutely everything except the most common tool in homicides.

Quote:

Europeans, who are the most violent, abusive, trouble-making and war-starting civilization on the face of the Earth, have shown time and again they are the last people anybody should listen to about any issues of morality, so put a cork in it. The defenselessness and spread-legged-ness of various European states have repeatedly been direct causal factors in wars. (And Canadians just don't matter, because they're just a vestigial appendage of the U.S.. and Britain)


What is this? and, I guess you are saying that counter examples to your crazy theory don't matter (canadians, however insignificant, have done some bad things).


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently Europeans are not allowed to speak on any subject regarding morality unless they have a cork in it. So much for the pithy dreams of freedom of speech from legislation, telling someone to shut up is confusing to rights champions I would think. It's certainly confusing me, but I am the bearer of a very small brain.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
Apparently Europeans are not allowed to speak on any subject regarding morality unless they have a cork in it. So much for the pithy dreams of freedom of speech from legislation, telling someone to shut up is confusing to rights champions I would think. It's certainly confusing me, but I am the bearer of a very small brain.


I don't see this strange dichotomy of European/American. American/Canadian/Europeans were the ones responsible for the mass deaths of native americans.
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