Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
Maintenance - how much time does it take YOU?
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
cryptosteve
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 1080
Location: Buchholz/GER

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

creaker wrote:
10 hours for KDE only? 8O

It depends ... sometimes it's faster and sometimes it's slower. With ccache and tmpfs. And it it (was!) a small KDE installation, not a kde-full.
_________________
- born to create drama -
cryptosteve - gpg: 0x9B6C7E15
CS Virtual Travel Bug: VF6G5D
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
creaker
l33t
l33t


Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean, that 10 hours is too much, especially for minimal kde.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cryptosteve
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 1080
Location: Buchholz/GER

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said it's very different here. For example kdelibs, between 26 minutes and 3 1/2 hours:

Code:
     Thu Aug 30 18:21:29 2012 >>> kde-base/kdelibs-4.8.3
       merge time: 30 minutes and 24 seconds.

     Fri Aug 31 20:55:28 2012 >>> kde-base/kdelibs-4.9.0
       merge time: 40 minutes and 12 seconds.

     Thu Sep  6 18:24:59 2012 >>> kde-base/kdelibs-4.9.1
       merge time: 48 minutes and 5 seconds.

     Fri Oct  5 18:53:29 2012 >>> kde-base/kdelibs-4.9.2
       merge time: 2 hours, 44 minutes and 15 seconds.

     Fri Nov  9 17:13:14 2012 >>> kde-base/kdelibs-4.9.3
       merge time: 3 hours, 10 minutes and 40 seconds.

     Fri Dec  7 13:34:09 2012 >>> kde-base/kdelibs-4.9.4
       merge time: 35 minutes and 40 seconds.

     Sat Dec  8 10:53:10 2012 >>> kde-base/kdelibs-4.9.4-r1
       merge time: 2 hours, 25 minutes and 1 second.

     Sun Dec 23 16:54:49 2012 >>> kde-base/kdelibs-4.9.4-r1
       merge time: 38 minutes and 48 seconds.

     Wed Jan  9 13:57:28 2013 >>> kde-base/kdelibs-4.9.5
       merge time: 36 minutes and 43 seconds.

     Sun Jan 27 13:33:32 2013 >>> kde-base/kdelibs-4.9.5
       merge time: 35 minutes and 29 seconds.

     Sun Feb 10 11:26:19 2013 >>> kde-base/kdelibs-4.10.0
       merge time: 1 hour and 36 seconds.

     Tue Feb 19 18:45:17 2013 >>> kde-base/kdelibs-4.10.0
       merge time: 28 minutes and 45 seconds.

     Wed Mar  6 18:53:19 2013 >>> kde-base/kdelibs-4.10.1
       merge time: 26 minutes and 5 seconds.

     Wed Mar 20 23:36:06 2013 >>> kde-base/kdelibs-4.10.1
       merge time: 56 minutes and 15 seconds.

     Sat Mar 23 13:08:35 2013 >>> kde-base/kdelibs-4.10.1-r1
       merge time: 26 minutes and 57 seconds.

     Tue Apr  9 20:39:40 2013 >>> kde-base/kdelibs-4.10.2
       merge time: 2 hours, 30 minutes and 37 seconds.

     Sun Apr 14 11:06:50 2013 >>> kde-base/kdelibs-4.10.2
       merge time: 3 hours, 21 minutes and 53 seconds.

     Tue Apr 23 15:00:20 2013 >>> kde-base/kdelibs-4.10.2
       merge time: 28 minutes and 59 seconds.

Depends on other packages that will be upgraded at the same time. Sometimes I build with --jobs=x. So a KDE-Upgrade may be done in 5 hours or may be done in 15-20 hours. And it's never 'only KDE' ...
_________________
- born to create drama -
cryptosteve - gpg: 0x9B6C7E15
CS Virtual Travel Bug: VF6G5D
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
creaker
l33t
l33t


Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a command gives you this output?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cryptosteve
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 1080
Location: Buchholz/GER

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:
genlop -t $package


genlop is app-portage/genlop
_________________
- born to create drama -
cryptosteve - gpg: 0x9B6C7E15
CS Virtual Travel Bug: VF6G5D
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
creaker
l33t
l33t


Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Useful tool! Thanks!

Code:
     Thu Mar 21 15:18:59 2013 >>> kde-base/kdelibs-4.9.5
       merge time: 11 minutes and 27 seconds.

     Sun May  5 01:21:05 2013 >>> kde-base/kdelibs-4.10.2
       merge time: 12 minutes and 15 seconds.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cryptosteve
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 1080
Location: Buchholz/GER

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm ...

your "Intel Core i3-2120" vs my "Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU T955".

I should upgrade my machine :)
_________________
- born to create drama -
cryptosteve - gpg: 0x9B6C7E15
CS Virtual Travel Bug: VF6G5D
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eccerr0r
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 4004
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed, I don't count time that I leave machines to chug along to update, plus I distcc all my machines...
But I tend not to do an emerge world update to each machine automatically because there tends to be packages that I really worry about breaking my system if it's emerged blindly (though recently it's been OK: stuff like openssh networkmanager xorg-server apache(sometimes) udev(!!!))... That recent udev upgrade caused a lot of headache because all my machines needed special attention to update due to kernel issues!

Also things like Firefox, etc. and even software that had default config files change - many of my machines need special attention to build. These are the most time consuming maintenance items.
_________________
Intel Core i7 2700K@ 4.1GHz/HD3000 graphics/8GB DDR3/180GB SSD
What am I supposed to be advocating?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mimosinnet
Guru
Guru


Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 525
Location: Barcelona, Spain

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:oops: I update my gentoo boxes every 6 months (summer and Christmas) unless, unlikely, there is something I need for some reason.

This may be another approach. I do not work in the IT area and I do not have any background on computer science. I mainly use it for my work as a lecturer on psychology (mostly, lowriter, firefox and mutt). I have found that gentoo, once it is tuned, it is extremely stable. I have learned: "if if works, do not touch it" So I do not touch it for 6 months, and I do not have any hassle. Then, on holidays, I spend a couple of days upgrading the boxes and enjoying all the troubles of a broken system, as a hobby (all those glorious "expat" days!). Unfortunately, this happens less and less, so I had to find something else to enjoy myself: I have started to learn Perl :twisted: .

Beforehand, I have used mandriva and ubuntu. The issue with those distributions is that you have these automatic updates and pre-made configurations. So far, so good, Nevertheless, when something breaks down it is difficult to know (at least for a non-technical person) what is going on. I have ended up reinstalling the whole distribution and, in the middle of a semester with a heavy load, this is an awful experience. I have also introduced gentoo to my closets friends and mother, and they have the same experience: extremely stable till you touch it.

It is true that working with huge desktop environments makes your life difficult, so I have opted for light desktop environments (icewm, widowmaker, awesome and, finally, fvwm) and packages (vifm, mutt, urxvt). This makes maintenance less painful.

Cheers!
_________________
Please add [solved] to the initial post's subject line if you feel your problem is resolved.
Thank the community answering other people's post, specially those unanswered.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mv
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 4221

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mimosinnet wrote:
I update my gentoo boxes every 6 months (summer and Christmas)

The problem with tihs is that you have up to 6 months old security holes: If your machine is ever connected to the internet this is a severe security problem.
I must tell that if you run such an upgrade policy, gentoo is not the right distribution for you: It is then more reasonable to use a long-time-supported binary distro (like Debian or Ubuntu LTS) where you get only security updates (i.e. no unexpected change), and you have to upgrade the system only after a few years: This way your machine will stay halfway secure throughout.
Edit: Also, if you upgrade so seldom, you loose one of the main advantages of gentoo, anyway: Namely that you need to spend only a few minutes every week and get troubles spread over tmie instead of one huge upgrade and list of troubles at a bulk.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cryptosteve
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 1080
Location: Buchholz/GER

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
Edit: Also, if you upgrade so seldom, you loose one of the main advantages of gentoo, anyway: Namely that you need to spend only a few minutes every week and get troubles spread over tmie instead of one huge upgrade and list of troubles at a bulk.

That's it! And that applies to the most (all?) other rolling release distros.
_________________
- born to create drama -
cryptosteve - gpg: 0x9B6C7E15
CS Virtual Travel Bug: VF6G5D
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eccerr0r
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 4004
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually there is a downside, I think the cumulative time spent updating Gentoo could be higher than if you compared it to a stable version OS, even counting the fact a version release OS you will have to reinstall and reconfigure everything when support ends... You do get all your cruft cleared off as well though, which is nice.

Depends on desire for latest software without needing to reinstall everything else I suppose...?

And here's yet another worry I have: those who think "if it isn't broke, don't fix it" ... The problem being that the person sitting at the computer does not necessarily know when it's broken... a machine that got "automatically volunteered" on a botnet is broken but users may not know about that fact...
_________________
Intel Core i7 2700K@ 4.1GHz/HD3000 graphics/8GB DDR3/180GB SSD
What am I supposed to be advocating?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hypnos
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 18 Jul 2002
Posts: 2868
Location: Omnipresent

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the other hand, if you want a tweaked system, Gentoo is astronomically less effort than a binary distro without rolling releases.

That's why I use Gentoo. I need to control my toolchain and I like setting compile-time options with USE flags.

My maintenance effort is about 10 minutes a week. I have a script running as a weekly cron job which reports various things that might require action.

I tend to only upgrade packages if there's a security issue or if the version I have installed has disappeared from the Portage tree. This minimizes maintenance burden by reducing the frequency of breakages.
_________________
Personal overlay | Simple backup scheme
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
leifbk
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 280
Location: Bærum, Norway

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There ought to be a rule of thumb for minimizing regular maintenance work on a Gentoo system. Syncing once a day is obviously overkill, while doing it every six months may yield major borkage. My guess is that the sweet spot lies somewhere between once a week and once a month.
_________________
The Yggdrasil Genealogy Project
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
schorsch_76
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 19 Jun 2012
Posts: 212

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yesterday i booted an old VM image of gentoo. Was last touched october '12 . Got a major breakage because of EAPT 5 and invalid profiles. The VM was hardened, and the trick with "eselect profile set 0" and emerge portage did not work. So my guess is that it is ideal to do at least an update every month. But i'm not sure if such breaking changes like the EAPI 5 thing occur often ...

Bye
schorsch
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mv
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 4221

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

schorsch_76 wrote:
Got a major breakage because of EAPT 5 and invalid profiles.

You must first do anything to update portage (change profile or whatever is necessary to get this done). Then the rest should not be a problem.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eccerr0r
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 4004
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Following M$'s model, once a week is probably sufficient - that's about how much I do it. Just that I have a zillion machines...

I really should coalesce some machines together, but risk of having one machine go down taking down many things at once is the worry.
_________________
Intel Core i7 2700K@ 4.1GHz/HD3000 graphics/8GB DDR3/180GB SSD
What am I supposed to be advocating?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mimosinnet
Guru
Guru


Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 525
Location: Barcelona, Spain

PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
mimosinnet wrote:
I update my gentoo boxes every 6 months (summer and Christmas)

The problem with this is that you have up to 6 months old security holes: If your machine is ever connected to the internet this is a severe security problem.
I must tell that if you run such an upgrade policy, gentoo is not the right distribution for you.


Now that I thought I had found the ideal distribution :? :twisted: I am not sure what would be a "severe security problem", but maybe you are thinking more of a server with sensitive data than a laptop or a personal computer where the main security issue is getting it stolen. The most sensitive data would be the passwords saved in firefox/chromium, and I would expect that the stable versions should be secure enough.

mv wrote:
Also, if you upgrade so seldom, you loose one of the main advantages of gentoo, anyway: Namely that you need to spend only a few minutes every week and get troubles spread over tmie instead of one huge upgrade and list of troubles at a bulk.


That's the thing! Over the years, gentoo upgrades are less and less painful. The troubles have more to do with the issues involved in upgrading individual packages than gentoo itself. For me, the main advantage of gentoo is that you learn a lot and have a lot of control over your box, even if you have little computer knowledge (like me).

In any case, thanks for you insight. I will read a bit more about security issues and see if I can make the updates every 3 moths.

Cheers!
_________________
Please add [solved] to the initial post's subject line if you feel your problem is resolved.
Thank the community answering other people's post, specially those unanswered.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
khayyam
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 2244

PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mimosinnet wrote:
Now that I thought I had found the ideal distribution. I am not sure what would be a "severe security problem", but maybe you are thinking more of a server with sensitive data than a laptop or a personal computer where the main security issue is getting it stolen. The most sensitive data would be the passwords saved in firefox/chromium, and I would expect that the stable versions should be secure enough.

mimosinnet ... if your using a browser, flash, or other applications that interface with unknown code then there is no difference between a laptop and a server. A server has a wider attack surface perhaps, but this doesn't mean the laptop is impervious to exploits. In fact, attacks often target a machine within a network (say via a trojan'd file sent via email, or a link to some MiTM website) and so completely circumvent any perimeter defences. Your browser is a vector for possible malicious code, and so security fixes should be applied in a regular basis. You need only search for firefox on b.g.o to see the CVE's received and the effort put into getting fixes applied and the package bumped.

best ... khay
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
schorsch_76
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 19 Jun 2012
Posts: 212

PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
schorsch_76 wrote:
Got a major breakage because of EAPT 5 and invalid profiles.

You must first do anything to update portage (change profile or whatever is necessary to get this done). Then the rest should not be a problem.

I know that. I tired every profile and the update of portage did not work. My workflow has now changed. I build all installations in virtualbox on my maschine and upload all packages to a local http server that serves as a binhost. There are serperate folders like "packages-gentoo-rtmaschine-686" or "packages-gentoo-xbmc-stable-amd64". The vm's are updated regulary. If the target maschine is not up to date for some time and the local update is scheduled all packages are already build. If all breaks licke this portage update, the package can get fetched and install manually.

Bye
schorsch
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eccerr0r
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 4004
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[SLIGHTLY OFF TOPIC RANT]
It bothers me people don't take security seriously even for personal devices, even if it takes time. Anything that's connected to the network 24/7 and turned on for more than a few hours every day, even if it does not serve data, needs to be secured. Pretty much all cellular phones fall into this category. A lot of desktop machines fall into this category.

Perhaps the odd laptop that's not being used often is the only exception.

Why am I upset of these who don't clean their machines?

Botnets.

I'm sick and tired of these machines attacking my machines, sending me spam, generating revenue for people doing these things behind peoples' backs. It's not only Windows machines, Linux machines that are on the network 24/7 are prime targets for these hackers.

If people don't care about these things I'd love to install a bitcoin miner on your machine and let me take all them. Now you say you don't want it. Why would they not want me to get free bitcoins from your computer and allow some third party hacker have them for free?

I'm not even getting into the keylogger problems of an insecure machine. Getting bank account passwords would be the jackpot for the blackhats.

Please secure your computers!
[/SLIGHTLY OFF TOPIC RANT]
_________________
Intel Core i7 2700K@ 4.1GHz/HD3000 graphics/8GB DDR3/180GB SSD
What am I supposed to be advocating?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mimosinnet
Guru
Guru


Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 525
Location: Barcelona, Spain

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eccerr0r wrote:
[SLIGHTLY OFF TOPIC RANT]
It bothers me people don't take security seriously even for personal devices, even if it takes time.

Please secure your computers!
[/SLIGHTLY OFF TOPIC RANT]


Thanks for the comments! This tread has made me aware of the importance of having the box up-to date and secured. (Do not ask me to leave gentoo, though! ;-) ). Maybe using [url="http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/security/security-handbook.xml?part=1&chap=14"]glsa-check[/url] regularly could give a hint on when and what to update.

Cheers!

P.S.: In my search, I have found this post arguing against using gentoo on a server because of these frequent updates. Not endorsing it: just for the argument.
_________________
Please add [solved] to the initial post's subject line if you feel your problem is resolved.
Thank the community answering other people's post, specially those unanswered.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
khayyam
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 2244

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mimosinnet wrote:
[P.S.: In my search, I have found this post arguing against using gentoo on a server because of these frequent updates. Not endorsing it: just for the argument.

mimosinnet ... just as an example of the level of understanding the author has on the subject of gentoo, do you think that when updating portage you need to update "ALL of your configuration files"? Anyone who's used gentoo for even a modicum of time knows that the "ALL" referenced here is portages configuration, not everything under /etc. Such an update, using etc-update or dispatch-conf, takes a matter of seconds, and the warning is trivial if one understands why the warning is provided. The author can't "fit this [...] into [their] schedule" and mostly that's the problem with the whole article, their "schedule" obviously got in the way of learning what it was they were to be presenting and why the headline should be amended to say "Stuff I don't know about Gentoo".

Note also, this article is from 2006 and there is a fair amount of severs that have been running gentoo since that time, had there been a drain on peoples time, etc, then I'm sure this wouldn't be the case.

best ... khay
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
swathe
n00b
n00b


Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once a week seems to work well enough for me. Have not experienced any real issues so far.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ant P.
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 2404
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ khayyam:

The funny thing is, Debian handles config files in almost exactly the same way (but worse, since it requires you to babysit the entire update process instead of doing it afterwards). I've never seen articles ranting about that...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum