Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
Rant: Nepomuk and strigi - solution in search of a problem
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
sam_i_am
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 125

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:06 pm    Post subject: Rant: Nepomuk and strigi - solution in search of a problem Reply with quote

I've been a long time Linux user (since Linux 0.99) and been using KDE as my primary desktop at work since 2003. Contrary to some other posts, I'm rather happy with KDE 4.3. Sure, there is an occasional crash and things changed for no apparent reason. But, all in all I've been happy and growing to like it. Kudos to KDE developers and Gentoo community.

The only exception to this is nepomuk and strigi. I really don't get why they exist. Yes, I've read about the semantic desktop and all the features they provide. But they are really trying to address a problem that I don't have. I give my file names a sensible name and I have no problem locating them. I have some marginal organization (few folders for specific things like documents, pictures, videos, music etc) and I manage fine. There are about 60G of files (including backups from my laptop) and about 1200 files, but I never felt that I could not find what I needed to find.

I mean, really! Are there any valid use cases to justify all that effort spent on the so called "desktop search"? How does that make my life easier? You mean I have to tag them with something sensible? Why? That is adding more work for me.

Today, I found that nepomuk database for my 60G of files is about 2G. I've been experiencing freezes in Dolphin (I can see CPU usage shooting up for about 5 sec on my 2.4 GHz Core2Quad with 4G ram) whenever I change something. Someone mentioned that removing Dolphin configuration files helped. But, it didn't. My guess is that it is groping through that 2G of its file index and trying to update it.

Every time I start KDE, I get about four messages from Strigi saying it is indexing files and takes up about 10-15 sec.

So, for now, I've disabled both nepomuk and strigi. I really hope that won't break anything I regularly use. I'll keep reading about them to see if ever they make my life easier. But, I won't hold my breath.

Sam
PS: There. I feel better now :)
_________________
Sam
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yngwin
Developer
Developer


Joined: 19 Dec 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Suzhou, China

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I completely agree. Useless bloat.
_________________
"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves." - Abraham Lincoln
Free Culture | Defective by Design | EFF
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
platojones
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 23 Oct 2002
Posts: 1554
Location: Just over the horizon

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll reserve judgment on it's usefulness if and when it's actually half-way stable. The biggest problem I see is that it seems to be alpha-quality code, at best. Every version, while slightly more stable than the last, is riddled with massive bugs and crashes or goes crazy often. I know they want to get feedback on it, but in it's current form, it's virtually unusable and brings the entire experience down...it's a pathetically weak link in an otherwise very nice chain.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gerard82
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 2228
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have removed nepomuk.
I masked it too in /etc/portage/package.mask.
I don't use pim and therefore equery depends nepomuk shows a few things
like amarok.
By adding -semantic-desktop in /etc/make.conf this went away also.
Gerard.
_________________
To install Gentoo I use sysrescuecd.Based on Gentoo,has firefox to browse Gentoo docs and mc to browse (and edit) files.
The same disk can be used for 32 and 64 bit installs.
You can follow the Handbook verbatim.
http://www.sysresccd.org/Download
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NathanZachary
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 2327
Location: /home/zach

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I completely agree with your sentiments. As far as I can tell, you can safely remove nepomuk without any repercussions. I'm not sure if you can completely remove strigi without being notified, but that would be nice as well. The bloat was one of the reasons I switched away from KDE as my primary environment (and that was back with KDE3, not even 4). I primarily use Openbox with a bunch of components from LXDE. BUT, I still do like many of the aspects of KDE.
_________________
“Truth, like infinity, is to be forever approached but never reached.” --Jean Ayres (1972)
---avatar cropped from =AimanStudio---
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DaggyStyle
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 4929

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm trying to get rid of them, adding - semantic-desktop to make.conf returns this:
Code:
!! Multiple package instances within a single package slot have been pulled
!!! into the dependency graph, resulting in a slot conflict:               

kde-base/kdebase-runtime-meta:4.3

  ('installed', '/', 'kde-base/kdebase-runtime-meta-4.3.4-r1', 'nomerge') pulled in by                                                                         
    >=kde-base/kdebase-runtime-meta-4.3.4[-kdeprefix,semantic-desktop,handbook] required by ('installed', '/', 'kde-base/kdelibs-4.3.4', 'nomerge')             
    (and 2 more)                                                               

  ('ebuild', '/', 'kde-base/kdebase-runtime-meta-4.3.4-r1', 'merge') pulled in by                                                                               
    >=kde-base/kdebase-runtime-meta-4.3.4[-kdeprefix,handbook] required by ('ebuild', '/', 'kde-base/kdelibs-4.3.4', 'merge')                                   
    >=kde-base/kdebase-runtime-meta-4.3.4[-kdeprefix] required by ('installed', '/', 'kde-base/kdebase-startkde-4.3.4', 'nomerge')                             

  Explanation:

    New USE for 'kde-base/kdebase-runtime-meta:4.3' are incorrectly set.
    In order to solve this, adjust USE to satisfy '>=kde-base/kdebase- 
    runtime-meta-4.3.4[-kdeprefix,semantic-desktop,handbook]'.         

kde-base/kdelibs:4.3

  ('ebuild', '/', 'kde-base/kdelibs-4.3.4', 'merge') pulled in by
    >=kde-base/kdelibs-4.3.4[-kdeprefix] required by ('installed', '/', 'kde-base/libksane-4.3.4', 'nomerge')
    kde-base/kdelibs required by world
    >=kde-base/kdelibs-4.3.4[-kdeprefix] required by ('installed', '/', 'kde-base/ksystraycmd-4.3.4', 'nomerge')
    (and 180 more)

  ('installed', '/', 'kde-base/kdelibs-4.3.4', 'nomerge') pulled in by
    >=kde-base/kdelibs-4.3[semantic-desktop] required by ('installed', '/', 'kde-misc/kbluetooth-9999', 'nomerge')
    >=kde-base/kdelibs-4.2[semantic-desktop] required by ('installed', '/', 'kde-misc/krecipes-2.0_alpha4', 'nomerge')
    >=kde-base/kdelibs-4.3[semantic-desktop] required by ('installed', '/', 'media-video/kdenlive-0.7.6', 'nomerge')
    (and 183 more)

  Explanation:

    New USE for 'kde-base/kdelibs:4.3' are incorrectly set. In order to
    solve this, adjust USE to satisfy '>=kde-base/kdelibs-4.2[semantic-
    desktop]' and '>=kde-base/kdelibs-4.3[semantic-desktop]'.


question is, can this programs work without it? it seems that it is not that easy to get rid of it.
_________________
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein
ProjectFootball
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gerard82
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 2228
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am sorry it's near midnight here and I want to go to bed.
Nevertheless I tried emerge -ep world and it didn't give me any errors.
So it's not this -semantic-desktop USE flag that's causing your problem.
Plse do
Code:

equery depends nepomuk

If there are packages you can't do without you'll have to leave it in.
Gerard.
_________________
To install Gentoo I use sysrescuecd.Based on Gentoo,has firefox to browse Gentoo docs and mc to browse (and edit) files.
The same disk can be used for 32 and 64 bit installs.
You can follow the Handbook verbatim.
http://www.sysresccd.org/Download
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DaggyStyle
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 4929

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

unfortunately, like amarok depends on strigi, kbluetooth (svn version) depends on nepomuk.
thus making it impossible to remove it, I did disbled then both in kde but still nepomuk is running in the memory.
_________________
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein
ProjectFootball
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wjb
Guru
Guru


Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 355
Location: Fife, Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can cut down what its indexing using: System Settings -> Advanced User Settings -> Desktop Search -> Advanced Settings

What IS it for? Anyone ...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gerard82
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 2228
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a line from common depends in /usr/portage/net-wireless/kbluetooth:
Code:
semantic-desktop? ( >=kde-base/nepomuk-${KDE_MINIMAL} )"


To the best of my knowledge this means nepomuk is needed if semantic desktop is set in /etc/make.conf.
I am sure there's more like these in other ebuilds.
It will be quite a lot of work but this way you'll be able to find out which progs can do w/o nepomuk.
Gerard.
_________________
To install Gentoo I use sysrescuecd.Based on Gentoo,has firefox to browse Gentoo docs and mc to browse (and edit) files.
The same disk can be used for 32 and 64 bit installs.
You can follow the Handbook verbatim.
http://www.sysresccd.org/Download
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
scotus africanus
n00b
n00b


Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 6
Location: umbilo,durban

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:09 pm    Post subject: nepomuk/strigi Reply with quote

i mostly agree with the sentiment here, disabling these pesky dependencies was more like an exorcism...
however, do spare a thought for the guys developing this interesting technology, they need the feedback to make it better. i once got it to work (cant remember the spell i cast!) and was pleasantly surprised, but like you, for day to day stuff it gets in the way
sa.
_________________
apres moi le deluge
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DaggyStyle
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 4929

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gerard82 wrote:
This is a line from common depends in /usr/portage/net-wireless/kbluetooth:
Code:
semantic-desktop? ( >=kde-base/nepomuk-${KDE_MINIMAL} )"


To the best of my knowledge this means nepomuk is needed if semantic desktop is set in /etc/make.conf.
I am sure there's more like these in other ebuilds.
It will be quite a lot of work but this way you'll be able to find out which progs can do w/o nepomuk.
Gerard.

mmm, just noticed it is the same, one (using a svn version) will modify it.
_________________
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein
ProjectFootball
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DaggyStyle
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 4929

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

doesn't soprano is part of the same thing?
_________________
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein
ProjectFootball
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jbouzan
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 138

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I have nepomuk enabled, I've never really thought about it. Reading what it's supposed to do, I thought it'd be cool to see what it actually does. But I haven't tried desktop searches without nepomuk enabled. Is the find tool in dolphin disabled or just less functional? Is there anything like apple's spotlight tool to perform FAYT searches with nepomuk data?

Just to add my bit to this talk, although I personally never use desktop search (like sam_i_am said, basic organization means it's never necessary), I've seen several people who desperately need such software. In particular, one friend is computer literate in the sense of being able to perform any basic task, but never bothers to give files consistent names or put them into their respective folders. She has folders for every class and subject, but they aren't in a logical tree, and files often end up in a higher-level directory than could be. So it seems to me that some people really do need it, but unless or until there is something like I asked above it doesn't help in the way it's needed.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Aquiles
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 230
Location: Somewhere, surrounded by my circumstances.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I partly agree with the original poster. However, I have found a good use to the so called Desktop Search. Although it is easy for me to find what I am looking for without any help other than the logical folder structure of my home directory, it is easier and faster to use the KDE application launcher (Alt+F2 by default) to also launch files. If a file named 'testdocument.txt' is indexed I can Alt+F2, then type testdocument and I will get an entry to open the file. This is more convenient than browsing through the filesystem until you reach the folder where the file lives. Which does not mean that there are no other ways to get quickly to frequently used files.

However, I am not sure about whether this feature pays off. I have to say that the Spotlight engine used in Mac OS X is far less consuming than Strigi. Strigi seems to perform some kind of indexing each time I start KDE, while Spotlight is only noticeable when there are huge changes in the filesystem.
_________________
Aquiles
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
monkeygirl
n00b
n00b


Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I turned this feature off because it was slow on my netbook, but to be honest, I had no idea what it was for and the nepomuk home page objectives made me go 'wtf?!'

Are the desktop searches like the line commands locate or find or are they supposed to be faster? The slow start up for indexing just seems kind of pointless.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
keenblade
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 1085

PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

monkeygirl wrote:
...Are the desktop searches like the line commands locate or find or are they supposed to be faster? The slow start up for indexing just seems kind of pointless.

This technology provides an interesting thing that do not exist in locate or find commands. The text search in the contents of pdf files or office files, even in jpeg vs. (actually you can search text with find command, but it will be dog slow to search all the hard disks.). So for ex: you can find a technical term easily in your pdf files for your scientific work.
This sounds very good to legitimate the use of this tech. But I always feel, this kind of tech is here not to help us, but to help someone to steal what we have on our pc. Conspiracy theory here :)
_________________
Anyway it's all the same at the end...
Need help to get it working: "x-fi surround 5.1"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Plague.CZ
n00b
n00b


Joined: 13 Mar 2007
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OMG finally some people with sense :)

But on a more serious note... I understand that some people need such software, and I'm glad that there are people satisfying ther peoples needs, BUT why the hell do we have HARD dependencies on such bloats? I chose Gentoo because I wanted to select which to install and run, why do many KDE apps these days take this from me? It's not only desktop search, this can be disabled easily, but what about hal (i have it installed, but never run it), akonadi-server and others?
_________________
Czech translator of SMPlayer
http://smplayer.sf.net - the best player out there
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sam_i_am
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 125

PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The biggest application area I've seen for this kind of search tools is in indexing personal media libraries (photos, music etc). But then again, to make such a system work, you have to add annotations or ratings. I guess if you have thousands of music tracks, you can rate it while you are listening and then later easily can pick the ones you find interesting.

However, that is a rather specialized use case and there are tools that can handle it if needed.
_________________
Sam
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
boris_qd
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 158
Location: Bonn/Germany

PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually like them quite a bit. I have a large collection of science papers/notes/books etc. and use the search functionality to find pieces of information I'm looking for. I think it's great.

My problem is that it doesn't seem to search djvu files. If I could get that working I would really be a happy camper.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cjubon
Guru
Guru


Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 441
Location: Vienna/Europe

PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fully agree with the original poster—apart from being buggy, it's useless if you don't need it
But then, I also fully agree with the most recent answer (boris_qd)—basically, the idea makes sense and it may be quite useful for a lot of people.

IMHO, there are two main issues with the current nepomuk implementation:
  • It's already been said that the code seems to be quite immature—I experienced regular freezes on my funtoo amd64 x2 machine until I turned that feature off.
  • My main concern is that the whole thing does not seem to be truely modular: for example, in order to install media-video/kdenlive, I need USE flag semantic-desktop turned on in kde-base/kdelibs.
    Further, USE flag "semantic-desktop" does different things for different packages: is pulls in kde-base/nepomuk for dolphin, kget, kmail, gwenview, etc., but does not do so for kde-base/kdelibs.


As far as Gentoo developers are concerned (and not upstream devs), I'd suggest to remove the semantic-desktop flag from kde-base/kdelibs, and leave it for those packages that aktually pull in kde-base/nepomuk.

EDIT: @boris_qd: I think the djvu issue is worth being filed on bugs.kde.org.
_________________
Mandrake Dec 2001 · Debian "Woody" Aug 2002 · Gentoo Jan 2004 · Funtoo Oct 2009
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
albright
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 2102
Location: Near Toronto

PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I actually like them quite a bit. I have a large collection of science papers/notes/books etc. and use the search functionality to find pieces of information I'm looking for. I think it's great.


yes that would be good but as others have observed nepomuk+strigi
crashes and/or pegs cpu regularly

But even when I've had the index complete I found an absolute
show stopper: not all files were indexed!!

Files I knew existed did not show up in my search results. That really
makes the thing not only useless but dangerous if you ever start to
rely on it.
_________________
.... there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth
doing as simply messing about with Linux ...
(apologies to Kenneth Graeme)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jackgentoo
n00b
n00b


Joined: 04 Apr 2003
Posts: 34
Location: Santa Barbara, CA, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My machine was swapping like mad. I found that the nepomukstorage process was taking up ALMOST 2GB of RAM. Useless ...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
durian
Guru
Guru


Joined: 16 Jul 2003
Posts: 312
Location: Margretetorp

PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was the first thing I disabled in KDE...

Should be possible to make it unintrusive though - I have a macBookPro which indexes everything in Spotlight without me noticing anything...

-peter
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NightMonkey
Guru
Guru


Joined: 21 Mar 2003
Posts: 310
Location: Brisbane, CA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a Windows desktop admin, I have found that killing:

Microsoft Indexing Service
Google Desktop Search

makes the underpowered (for Windows) machines behave much better. If one REALLY needs to find something, you're willing to wait a bit for a true broad data search. But, to index ALL THE TIME means that the disk is going ALL THE TIME. Every write has a double, sometimes triple disk access penalty. I don't care how Mac OS X hides it in Spotlight, because it can't get around the fact that it has to READ THE DATA to index it, which means that the disk is going to be over-accessed, the filesystem cache is going to be wiped out, etc. etc. in Windows, Mac OS X or Linux.

Granted, here in Linux Desktop land we don't also have to worry about contention with AV software (generally), but in Windows, as many of you know, it is quite a ruse to pull on users. "Gosh, why is my machine is so slooow?"

Rant complete.

EDIT:

P.S. I've been killing the Microsoft Indexing Service since 2000. Ten years of thankful hard drives! :)
_________________
I like Linux. :D
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 1 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum