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aidanjt
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
They're already paying the leaches. Make them earn it like everyone else.

They're not getting paid minimum wage, not even close. Like I said, if there's work to be done, employ them and take them off benefits. If not, you either need to focus on unfucking the economy and/or improving their employability.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
Muso wrote:
They're already paying the leaches. Make them earn it like everyone else.

They're not getting paid minimum wage, not even close. Like I said, if there's work to be done, employ them and take them off benefits. If not, you either need to focus on unfucking the economy and/or improving their employability.


First step in "unfucking" the economy is the clear the leaches and stop robbing the productive.
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aidanjt
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
First step in "unfucking" the economy is the clear the leaches and stop robbing the productive.

Let me guess, your idea of being productive is a hedge fund manager. Why don't you reopen Auschwitz for the unemployed, I'm sure that'll fix everything.
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you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
aidanjt wrote:
Muso wrote:
They're already paying the leaches. Make them earn it like everyone else.

They're not getting paid minimum wage, not even close. Like I said, if there's work to be done, employ them and take them off benefits. If not, you either need to focus on unfucking the economy and/or improving their employability.


First step in "unfucking" the economy is the clear the leaches and stop robbing the productive.


if you think the main problem is leeches, you are going to miss the mark.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
not assaulting the poor with ridiculous


We're not talking Victorian levels of poverty, with grimy street urchins.

Kindly stop drawing parallels.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:10 pm    Post subject: Re: What to do to reduce unemployemnt? Reply with quote

Dylan27 wrote:
which factor that our government control to overcome on unemployment.Even though the government adding new jobs but still the unemployment rates are high.
By definition, government jobs are a drain on resources. Government doesn't generate revenue, it consumes taxes taken from revenue generators.


Regarding forced work, just pay them minimum wage in the worst jobs possible. If they enjoy the work, great, problem solved. If they don't enjoy it, they have motivation to find something else. They can be allowed some day time to look for other work and work an additional night shift to make up for their non-productivity.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It isn't the role of government to provide or find people jobs. Unemployment isn't something that can be "fixed" by government. The sooner people learn to accept this the better off we will be. The only way to lower unemployment is to spend your own money on goods and services produced in your own country. Jobs are only needed to maintain production to meet demand, if there is no demand, there are no jobs.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: What to do to reduce unemployemnt? Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
By definition, government jobs are a drain on resources. Government doesn't generate revenue, it consumes taxes taken from revenue generators.


That's such a stupid thing to say in so many ways.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
We're not talking Victorian levels of poverty, with grimy street urchins.

Kindly stop drawing parallels.

Just because we don't have zombie-like walking skeletons in rags anymore, it doesn't mean poverty went away. Income inequality is still rising faster than any point in history, and job security for the working class (and increasingly for the private sector middle class, as well) has entirely evaporated. The only thing which has avoided the zombie-like walking skeletons is the social security services. The last few centuries of progress has begun sliding backwards, and you'd knock out the support pillars which are preventing that.
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aidanjt
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:25 pm    Post subject: Re: What to do to reduce unemployemnt? Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
By definition, government jobs are a drain on resources. Government doesn't generate revenue, it consumes taxes taken from revenue generators.

That is just silly nonsense. Just because revenue hasn't been raised it doesn't mean value hasn't been created. There's incredible value in a road network, business would grind to a halt without them. The same goes with national defence, policing, and all manner of things. This idea that government is only ever unproductive is the worst kind of thoughtless hyperbole.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:19 pm    Post subject: Re: What to do to reduce unemployemnt? Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
pjp wrote:
By definition, government jobs are a drain on resources. Government doesn't generate revenue, it consumes taxes taken from revenue generators.

That is just silly nonsense. Just because revenue hasn't been raised it doesn't mean value hasn't been created. There's incredible value in a road network, business would grind to a halt without them. The same goes with national defence, policing, and all manner of things. This idea that government is only ever unproductive is the worst kind of thoughtless hyperbole.

why do you make the assumption that private entities would not pick up the slack? have you never heard of private roads? or corporate owned towns? or blackwater? it's not a choice between government and nothing. it's a choice between government and what the market does. look at a large state like florida where TONS of the roads are privately owned. what you're saying is just not factually true.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
aidanjt wrote:
Muso wrote:
Streets can always be cleaned.

If the streets need cleaned then the local council authority should employ workers to do so


They're already paying the leaches. Make them earn it like everyone else.


if you pay them like the regular workers - sure.
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Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Around here, it is private companies and corporations that bid on major road jobs. The State workers do minor repair work, like potholes and the like. Government is just basically a pimp, that through bureaucratic waste and mismanagement take far more from the consumer to build a road (or rocket) than would otherwise be the case.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:07 am    Post subject: Re: What to do to reduce unemployemnt? Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
pjp wrote:
By definition, government jobs are a drain on resources. Government doesn't generate revenue, it consumes taxes taken from revenue generators.

That is just silly nonsense. Just because revenue hasn't been raised it doesn't mean value hasn't been created. There's incredible value in a road network, business would grind to a halt without them. The same goes with national defence, policing, and all manner of things. This idea that government is only ever unproductive is the worst kind of thoughtless hyperbole.
Except what I wrote was 100% correct. Whether or not government can produce "value" has nothing to do with what I wrote. Infrastructure needn't be controlled by a government monopoly, just like many would complain if it were a private monopoly.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Government is just basically a pimp, that through bureaucratic waste and mismanagement take far more from the consumer to build a road (or rocket) than would otherwise be the case.


Is that why US health care costs twice as much for worse outcomes compared to a country like the UK with its national health service?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff, you should have given up before ever posting.

The reasons healthcare in this country is so expensive is legion, with government regulation, price fixing, and red tape being prime contributors.

Thanks for making my argument for me.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

US health care is a prime example of market failure - in the sense of delivering high quality affordable health care. Of course, from the point of view of the price-gouging corporations who profit from that, it's a great success.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
US health care is a prime example of market failure - in the sense of delivering high quality affordable health care. Of course, from the point of view of the price-gouging corporations who profit from that, it's a great success.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

So a system working perfectly well gets meddled with by lolgov, prices start skyrocketing, so the solution lolgove uses is more lolgov, and then it gets worse. And you call that a market failure? :lol:
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
US health care is a prime example of market failure - in the sense of delivering high quality affordable health care. Of course, from the point of view of the price-gouging corporations who profit from that, it's a great success.
Interesting, if I'm reading correctly. Are you claiming that corporations used the government to implement anti-competitive regulations, thereby maximizing profits? That may very well describe the situation perfectly, and continues to demonstrate the failure of government. The solution would seem to be just enough regulation to prevent a monopoly, but not so much to create them.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
The only thing which has avoided the zombie-like walking skeletons is


Nobody will starve
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, to decrease unemployment maybe create more jobs? If there aren't enough jobs, reduce the amount of hours that people work by default, to allow for more job opportunities?
Of course, money/prices/rent/salaries has to be sorted out, but that's what taxes etc are for.

Personally, my team at work has been needing more people for some time, but we can't find the right people with the right skill set, so maybe training/education on top of that?

It isn't easy, and it's long term, but probably that's what we should be heading for? Educated people, working 30 hours a week or less, for a reasonable salary which can be used to eat, live, travel, have fun, buy stuff and make interesting things, whatever it is that you like doing? Also, maybe make the work week shorter, maybe even make it a 3 day, and people can alternate, that would fix some problems with very busy public transports, weekend peak times and so on.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gabrielg wrote:
So, to decrease unemployment maybe create more jobs? If there aren't enough jobs, reduce the amount of hours that people work by default, to allow for more job opportunities?
Of course, money/prices/rent/salaries has to be sorted out, but that's what taxes etc are for.
So I'm going to work less, get paid less, and have MORE of what little is left confiscated in taxes? Just shoot me.

gabrielg wrote:
Personally, my team at work has been needing more people for some time, but we can't find the right people with the right skill set, so maybe training/education on top of that?
Once upon a time, employers "invested" in people. The Perfect Candidate does not exist, it is a ploy for employers to whine about a lack of qualified candidates so they can justify cheap labor.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
So I'm going to work less, get paid less, and have MORE of what little is left confiscated in taxes? Just shoot me.

Not really, these things need to be readjusted. I won't tell you step by step how to do it, as a) I don't know the numbers/statistics b) it isn't my job.
Also, taxes don't necessarily have to be applied to you. The system has to be fair, and I know I'm being idealistic here... but the idea of 0 unemployment is idealistic for several reasons, IMHO.

pjp wrote:
Once upon a time, employers "invested" in people. The Perfect Candidate does not exist, it is a ploy for employers to whine about a lack of qualified candidates so they can justify cheap labor.

Yes, and that still exists I suppose, to get the candidate to be perfect. However, there is a steep learning curve for certain things, and some companies need skills right now.

I still like the idea of working less time for a _fair_ salary, and aiming towards that. In a distant future, just get rid of money if taxes/salary is such an issue.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
So I'm going to work less, get paid less, and have MORE of what little is left confiscated in taxes?


Maybe. The bit you're missing though is that a society, and an economy, achieves its most prosperous, happiest, best potential with a big, fat, healthy middle. If everyone has a more equal share of economic power, the economy will surge ahead compared to any alternative.

The alternative is a kind of feudalism where money and power is concentrated in the hands of a minority and the wider population have no real say in how things are run. That kind of system is easy. All you have to do to achieve it is sit back and let corruption and self-interest take their course. Fair societies with opportunities for all have to be engineered. They don't happen by accident.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
US health care is a prime example of market failure - in the sense of delivering high quality affordable health care. Of course, from the point of view of the price-gouging corporations who profit from that, it's a great success.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

So a system working perfectly well gets meddled with by lolgov, prices start skyrocketing, so the solution lolgove uses is more lolgov, and then it gets worse. And you call that a market failure? :lol:


the only problem is that everywhere else lolgov meddles even more and prices are much much much lower.
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