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big dave
n00b
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 0
Location: land of first world problems
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 Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:31 am Post subject: thought experiment |
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let's say you're driving, or on the metro, or biking, or whatever you do to get to work or school.
you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision? |
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Mardok45
n00b
Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 59
Location: Right behind you
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:39 am Post subject: |
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Damn, 20%. No way. I don't care if the route is going to be empty and will turn a 1 hour drive into 5 minutes, not worth it.
Now, how strict are we talking here? Are we allowed to gather massive amounts of protesters who will use the route and refuse to pay? Are the police really going to imprison 100, 200, 500 people? What's the amount of jail time we're going to spend? Are we going to be pulled over immediately or are we going to receive a letter and go to a court summons first? |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16033
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:39 am Post subject: |
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Short term, I might have no choice but to take that route. I'd have to find another route, and make sure the extra time was worth the cost savings. Chances are, there aren't that many suitable alternative routes. Assuming I could find a suitable alternative route, I'd use it. If not, I'd obviously start looking for a new job, possibly in a new city or state. A 20% "pay cut" may suck, but it is still better than a 100% pay cut (unemployment).
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lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.
In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008 |
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bogamol
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 84
Location: Detroit, Michigan - The Home of Rock and Roll
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:02 am Post subject: |
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Pending percieved support from my peers, I throw the tea off the boat and then drink coffee.
If its a battle I cant win then I just weigh the economic implications and pick the cheapest or move work.
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Yo momma's so classless she's a Marxist utopia! |
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big dave
n00b
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 0
Location: land of first world problems
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| any of the big government types want to chime in? |
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Dr.Willy
Apprentice
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 296
Location: NRW, Germany
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| I'd choose a different route. It so happens that I have two equally good routes to work and a third that I'd be willing to take for 20% more income. |
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jonnevers
Veteran
Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Posts: 1585
Location: Gentoo64 land
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr.Willy wrote: | | I'd choose a different route. It so happens that I have two equally good routes to work and a third that I'd be willing to take for 20% more income. |
++
For 20%, maybe parachuting in from helicopter everyday might be more cost effective. |
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juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 756
Location: EU
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: thought experiment |
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| big dave wrote: | let's say you're driving, or on the metro, or biking, or whatever you do to get to work or school.
you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision? |
what if they were a private entity doing the same? I would decide if it is worth it and possibly do without.
Oh, in the case of the govt owned bridge, i would write to my govt. |
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energyman76b
Advocate
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 2022
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: thought experiment |
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| big dave wrote: | let's say you're driving, or on the metro, or biking, or whatever you do to get to work or school.
you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision? |
you are using this to justify some anti-tax rants. I am not biting.
Btw toll =|= taxes.
Also: those who use the infrastructures and the benefits of the state, shall pay for it. Rich people use more of those benefits. So it is just they pay more.
_________________
| AidanJT wrote: |
Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.
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Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup. |
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BoneKracker
Veteran
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1499
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: thought experiment |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | big dave wrote: | let's say you're driving, or on the metro, or biking, or whatever you do to get to work or school.
you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision? |
you are using this to justify some anti-tax rants. I am not biting.
Btw toll =|= taxes.
Also: those who use the infrastructures and the benefits of the state, shall pay for it. Rich people use more of those benefits. So it is just they pay more. |
RED ALERT! RED ALERT!
APPROACHING RISK OF COGNITIVE DISSONANCE!
ENGAGE MINDBLOCK!
TRANSFER ENERGY TO FOWARD THOUGHT-SHIELDS!
PREPARE BULLSHIT TORPEDOES!
_________________
Oldthinkers unbellyfeel INGSOC.
-- Headline of a document on Winston Smith's terminal in his cubicle at the Ministry of Truth, seen briefly in the background in one scene of the movie rendition of Nineteen Eighty-Four. |
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BonezTheGoon
Bodhisattva
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 1376
Location: Albuquerque, NM -- birthplace of Microsoft and Gentoo
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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Everyone should be required to read this.
_________________
| pjp wrote: | | The greater evil is voting for the "lesser evil." |
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juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 756
Location: EU
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: thought experiment |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: | | big dave wrote: | let's say you're driving, or on the metro, or biking, or whatever you do to get to work or school.
you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision? |
you are using this to justify some anti-tax rants. I am not biting.
Btw toll =|= taxes.
Also: those who use the infrastructures and the benefits of the state, shall pay for it. Rich people use more of those benefits. So it is just they pay more. |
RED ALERT! RED ALERT!
APPROACHING RISK OF COGNITIVE DISSONANCE!
ENGAGE MINDBLOCK!
TRANSFER ENERGY TO FOWARD THOUGHT-SHIELDS!
PREPARE BULLSHIT TORPEDOES! |
what's wrong with what he said? Tolls aren't taxes. those who use, pay. if you don't want to pay, don't use. what's not to like? |
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dmitchell
Veteran
Joined: 17 May 2003
Posts: 1154
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:31 pm Post subject: Re: thought experiment |
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| juniper wrote: | | what's wrong with what he said? Tolls aren't taxes. those who use, pay. if you don't want to pay, don't use. what's not to like? |
Well I agree with you on the superiority of tolls. Why not replace all taxes with tolls or other kinds of user fees?
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Your argument is invalid. |
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dmitchell
Veteran
Joined: 17 May 2003
Posts: 1154
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:34 pm Post subject: Re: thought experiment |
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| big dave wrote: | | you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision? |
Clearly it depends on the cost of the alternatives. If there were no alternatives then I would have to find another job because my current job would no longer be profitable.
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Your argument is invalid. |
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BonezTheGoon
Bodhisattva
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 1376
Location: Albuquerque, NM -- birthplace of Microsoft and Gentoo
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: thought experiment |
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| juniper wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: | | big dave wrote: | let's say you're driving, or on the metro, or biking, or whatever you do to get to work or school.
you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision? |
you are using this to justify some anti-tax rants. I am not biting.
Btw toll =|= taxes.
Also: those who use the infrastructures and the benefits of the state, shall pay for it. Rich people use more of those benefits. So it is just they pay more. |
RED ALERT! RED ALERT!
APPROACHING RISK OF COGNITIVE DISSONANCE!
ENGAGE MINDBLOCK!
TRANSFER ENERGY TO FOWARD THOUGHT-SHIELDS!
PREPARE BULLSHIT TORPEDOES! |
what's wrong with what he said? Tolls aren't taxes. those who use, pay. if you don't want to pay, don't use. what's not to like? |
Well personally I'd say the thing that was "most wrong" about what he said is that he completely contradicted himself by saying he wasn't going to bite and then does right afterwards. But also he is avoiding the actual question entirely, which was called a thought experiment and then just arguing a point. Last but not least he is making completely unsubstantiated statements. But, pointing things like this out really never change anything. People are typically unwilling to ever let their mind evolve, grow, or change -- it's simply too frightening. Which is why I believe that so many discussions always devolve into factions of argument. So really I am wasting my breath much as energyman76b is in this thread, none here is ever likely to change their "pre-installed' beliefs no matter how much evidence is provided. This is apparently called the "Backfire Effect" by some, and it has scientifically been proven.
_________________
| pjp wrote: | | The greater evil is voting for the "lesser evil." |
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tylerwylie
Guru
Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Posts: 455
Location: /US/Illinois/Champaign
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: thought experiment |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: | | big dave wrote: | let's say you're driving, or on the metro, or biking, or whatever you do to get to work or school.
you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision? |
you are using this to justify some anti-tax rants. I am not biting.
Btw toll =|= taxes.
Also: those who use the infrastructures and the benefits of the state, shall pay for it. Rich people use more of those benefits. So it is just they pay more. |
RED ALERT! RED ALERT!
APPROACHING RISK OF COGNITIVE DISSONANCE!
ENGAGE MINDBLOCK!
TRANSFER ENERGY TO FOWARD THOUGHT-SHIELDS!
PREPARE BULLSHIT TORPEDOES! |
I lol'd.
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"Government is to society, what rape is to lovemaking" |
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dmitchell
Veteran
Joined: 17 May 2003
Posts: 1154
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: thought experiment |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | Btw toll =|= taxes |
Question: if a tax is not a fee you pay for a service, then what is it?
_________________
Your argument is invalid. |
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BonezTheGoon
Bodhisattva
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 1376
Location: Albuquerque, NM -- birthplace of Microsoft and Gentoo
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:15 pm Post subject: Re: thought experiment |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: | | Btw toll =|= taxes |
Question: if a tax is not a fee you pay for a service, then what is it? |
Legalized plunder.
_________________
| pjp wrote: | | The greater evil is voting for the "lesser evil." |
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jonnevers
Veteran
Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Posts: 1585
Location: Gentoo64 land
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:35 pm Post subject: Re: thought experiment |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: | | Btw toll =|= taxes |
Question: if a tax is not a fee you pay for a service, then what is it? |
fees I pay on services rendered to third parties totally unrelated to myself. tolls are similar but more directly tied to my actual usage of the service. |
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BoneKracker
Veteran
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1499
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:33 am Post subject: Re: thought experiment |
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| juniper wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: | | big dave wrote: | let's say you're driving, or on the metro, or biking, or whatever you do to get to work or school.
you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision? |
you are using this to justify some anti-tax rants. I am not biting.
Btw toll =|= taxes.
Also: those who use the infrastructures and the benefits of the state, shall pay for it. Rich people use more of those benefits. So it is just they pay more. |
RED ALERT! RED ALERT!
APPROACHING RISK OF COGNITIVE DISSONANCE!
ENGAGE MINDBLOCK!
TRANSFER ENERGY TO FOWARD THOUGHT-SHIELDS!
PREPARE BULLSHIT TORPEDOES! |
what's wrong with what he said? Tolls aren't taxes. those who use, pay. if you don't want to pay, don't use. what's not to like? |
What's wrong with it is that it's quibbling. It's not material to the question. It's a red herring. It's a bullshit torpedo.
_________________
Oldthinkers unbellyfeel INGSOC.
-- Headline of a document on Winston Smith's terminal in his cubicle at the Ministry of Truth, seen briefly in the background in one scene of the movie rendition of Nineteen Eighty-Four. |
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big dave
n00b
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 0
Location: land of first world problems
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:54 am Post subject: Re: thought experiment |
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| juniper wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: | | big dave wrote: | let's say you're driving, or on the metro, or biking, or whatever you do to get to work or school.
you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision? |
you are using this to justify some anti-tax rants. I am not biting.
Btw toll =|= taxes.
Also: those who use the infrastructures and the benefits of the state, shall pay for it. Rich people use more of those benefits. So it is just they pay more. |
RED ALERT! RED ALERT!
APPROACHING RISK OF COGNITIVE DISSONANCE!
ENGAGE MINDBLOCK!
TRANSFER ENERGY TO FOWARD THOUGHT-SHIELDS!
PREPARE BULLSHIT TORPEDOES! |
what's wrong with what he said? Tolls aren't taxes. those who use, pay. if you don't want to pay, don't use. what's not to like? |
how are the people in this thread evading road tolls any different than an investor who doesn't like US laws, so he stops investing in US companies, or even worse... moves out of the country entirely? |
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richk449
Guru
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 345
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:16 am Post subject: Re: thought experiment |
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| big dave wrote: | | how are the people in this thread evading road tolls any different than an investor who doesn't like US laws, so he stops investing in US companies, or even worse... moves out of the country entirely? |
They are a lot less poorer.
Oh, you want a real answer? Okay, here goes:
The reason that people are looked down upon when they get rich and leave for a tax haven is that they have taken, but refuse to give. In many cases, they were able to prosper because of the services that are provided by the state: schools, roads, garbage collection, security, fire prevention, are the obvious ones - but there are many more specific benefits too, from tax exemptions to subsidies to military spending to health care. I am not claiming that they didn't build their business, but that in many cases, they were able to build their business because of the role the state fills in ensuring opportunity and providing security.
I don't see how your example captures any of that. Basically, you have demonstrated that people act in their own self interest, which is hardly a novel finding. |
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BoneKracker
Veteran
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1499
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:32 am Post subject: |
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Commie. Kook Aid drinker.
People paying 80% of the taxes "refuse to give"? Seriously?
_________________
Oldthinkers unbellyfeel INGSOC.
-- Headline of a document on Winston Smith's terminal in his cubicle at the Ministry of Truth, seen briefly in the background in one scene of the movie rendition of Nineteen Eighty-Four. |
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Muso
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:35 am Post subject: Re: thought experiment |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: | | big dave wrote: | let's say you're driving, or on the metro, or biking, or whatever you do to get to work or school.
you're looking ahead and you see this MASSIVE sign. it says that starting tomorrow, there's going to be a toll on that route. starting tomorrow, taking the same route you've been using is going to cost 20% of your income. anyone on the route who didn't pay the toll will be imprisoned for tax evasion. are you going to pay to take that same route tomorrow, and how did you arrive at that decision? |
you are using this to justify some anti-tax rants. I am not biting.
Btw toll =|= taxes.
Also: those who use the infrastructures and the benefits of the state, shall pay for it. Rich people use more of those benefits. So it is just they pay more. |
RED ALERT! RED ALERT!
APPROACHING RISK OF COGNITIVE DISSONANCE!
ENGAGE MINDBLOCK!
TRANSFER ENERGY TO FOWARD THOUGHT-SHIELDS!
PREPARE BULLSHIT TORPEDOES! |
Post of the year, so far. 
_________________
If I had a dollar for every time capitalism was blamed for the problems caused by government, I'd be a fat filmmaker with a baseball cap |
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juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 756
Location: EU
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:36 am Post subject: Re: thought experiment |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | what's wrong with what he said? Tolls aren't taxes. those who use, pay. if you don't want to pay, don't use. what's not to like? |
Well I agree with you on the superiority of tolls. Why not replace all taxes with tolls or other kinds of user fees? |
you want some things not to have their price reflective of quality. You wouldn't want a tiered system of state schools with user fees, for example. Or healthcare price to reflect the cost of care (hence insurance).
For all other things for which we think there isn't some broad benefit to uniform pricing, sure. Set up your damn tolls. They used to be a pain in the ass, but now with technology streamlining much of the process, it works ok.
The brits have a system whose ideal is user fees. Privatization is rampant here. Basically, everything with the exception of healthcare is privatized (and a patchy state school system). Except for a bloated state with bloated benefits (a big "except"), you may like it here. |
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Off the Wall
