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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:54 am    Post subject: Opera Bites the Dust - moves to WebKit Reply with quote

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IDG News Service (New York Bureau) — Creating some consternation in the Web development community, Opera Software is switching from a home-built rendering engine to the more widely used open-source WebKit, now employed in the Apple Safari and Google Chrome browsers.

"It makes more sense to have our experts working with the open source communities ... rather than developing our own rendering engine further," said Opera Chief Technology Officer HAY=kon Wium Lie in a statement. The company also plans to use portions of Google's Chromium experimental Web browser project.

http://www.cio.com/article/728792/Opera_Moves_to_the_Webkit_Rendering_Engine
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess the fat lady has sung.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I guess the only remaining question is, how long before webkit becomes part of systemd?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

now if only MS would also see the writing on the wall and start using Gecko or WebKit.

then the web can start to get its shit together.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
So I guess the only remaining question is, how long before webkit becomes part of systemd?

That will become a necessity sooner or later, since apparently the future of desktop computing lies webapps written in HTML and JavaScript.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have actually met enough software developers who presented their web interfaces to their applications swollen with pride. Nobody ever asked for any of these web interfaces. Of course the applications came with few or no functions. Most of them never made it into the real world. But, the web interfaces included javascript and needed all kinds of additional shit plugins. That has always been an important feature for those developers. Every time I had to vomit. Fucking idiots can't keep things simple and finish the job. All losers. - Sorry for that rant. Feeling better now.

Bad news for Opera. Oblabla's fault - in any case.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
So I guess the only remaining question is, how long before webkit becomes part of systemd?

That will become a necessity sooner or later, since apparently the future of desktop computing lies webapps written in HTML and JavaScript.

And depending upon dbus and gconf, naturally, to show their desktopiness.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
And depending upon dbus and gconf, naturally, to show their desktopiness.

That would be impractical. dbus and gconf will of course be included in systemd.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
And depending upon dbus and gconf, naturally, to show their desktopiness.

That would be impractical. dbus and gconf will of course be included in systemd.

That's why it makes so much sense to put them all in there together: verticalic integratedness.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dbus in systemd - why stop there, lets just put it right into the Linux kernel.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

About time. Opera is the worst browser I've ever used from a performance standpoint. (Firefox, IE, Opera, Chrome. But from a pure usability-appeal standpoint, Chrome is the worst).
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who uses Opera anyway? Last I used it was... I don't even remember.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do.
AVX did or still does. He ranted about it some time ago, but I'm not sure if he really ditched it.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
Who uses Opera anyway? Last I used it was... I don't even remember.


2007 or so.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
Who uses Opera anyway? Last I used it was... I don't even remember.
Separate browsers for separate tasks.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clad in Sky wrote:
I do.
AVX did or still does. He ranted about it some time ago, but I'm not sure if he really ditched it.
Yep, I still do. It's getting worse by the day and I've got pretty much no time to 'learn' dwb or luakit, but for me, Opera's still waaaaay ahead of the competion natively available on Linux.

Last time I counted, I needed 11 extensions to get Firefox to the useability level I have in stock Opera, slowing Ff down to a crawl while still not providing the same level of quality. Chrome is a visual nightmare, not fitting anywhere if you're not using KDE/GNOME and it's adopted the downright stupid about:{config,flags} from Ff - Opera has something like this, but it has sane defaults and my changes never needed this.

I don't care for Adblock, Noscript, etc, I'm doing all of that with higher performance through Squid+Privoxy, thus only needing to maintain a single machine for our ~20 clients at home and just a quick rsync for the Laptops leaving out to the wild.

Opera has gone downhill UI-wise since 9.2, making choices for the stupid people and trying to bring flashy design, thank god, most of it can be turned off.

I'm doing a lot of graphics lately and Opera is by far the best stand alone SVG viewer out there. I don't give a damn if it's JS engine is a little slower then others, neither do I care about a few ms, nor have I ever seen a compelling usecase for it and it's pretty much disabled for all sites by default anyway. SVG has so much potential for the web, including practically everything CSS3 can do on the graphics side, but did anyone care? No.

Not to forget, next to claws, M2 currently is the only useable graphical mua on linux right now. KMail is broken beyond repair, evolution is just slow and buggy and don't even get me started on thunderbird.

I don't care much for Webkit, except having features which imho don't belong in an engine there to render text, but having sooo many bugs no one wants to fix, but spends time inventing the new hot stuff. Seriously, videochat and games like Quake in a browser, who the fuck needs that? Is it just because JS is relatively easy to learn and kids these days can no longer wrap their head around what real programming is?

So yeah, I'm still using it and until Ff behaves like in <=1.5 again, I don't see me switching to any of the major players anytime soon. I'll rather go down to basic and to do it my way, just like I do with my windowmanager and other stuff, thank you.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

avx wrote:
Clad in Sky wrote:
I do.
AVX did or still does. He ranted about it some time ago, but I'm not sure if he really ditched it.
Opera's still waaaaay ahead of the competion natively available on Linux.
+1
Quote:
Not to forget, next to claws, M2 currently is the only useable graphical mua on linux right now. KMail is broken beyond repair, evolution is just slow and buggy and don't even get me started on thunderbird.
For managing mails, thunderbird is quite good. Not so good for calendar functionality.

I am not surprised evolution is so bad. One time I decided to merge half of gnome to try out evolution,- evolution crashed within 5min of trying to use it. And I wasn't even trying to do anything fancy. It got quickly purged from the system. And now I know the reason why it is so bad. Quoting the most important part:
Quote:
...he noted that in conversation with some Evolution developers at GUADEC some years ago, he found that not one of the developers would admit to using Evolution to read their own mail. "They laughed at me for using it to try and read my mail."...


Quote:
I don't care much for Webkit, except having features which imho don't belong in an engine there to render text, but having sooo many bugs no one wants to fix, but spends time inventing the new hot stuff. Seriously, videochat and games like Quake in a browser, who the fuck needs that? Is it just because JS is relatively easy to learn and kids these days can no longer wrap their head around what real programming is?
There can be other nicer outcomes from these advances. For example, 3D graphics for education.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ppurka wrote:
There can be other nicer outcomes from these advances. For example, 3D graphics for education.
Of course, but is it really needed to have this in a browser which is constantly getting attacked?

Besides, watching this stuff usually incorporates some kind of workflow and there are better tools for that. There are already specialized tools for CAD, medical/chemical/physical stuff, etc. What's the benefit of reinventing the wheel, espacially when many of that software is very well written and uses way less ressources then a webapp could ever use(in the forseeable future).

As for thunderbird, it's unusably slow for my needs having a few k of mails on IMAP, besides also needing a lot of extension for pretty basic stuff which often don't work after updates(seeing that on wifey's pc).
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's all fucking bloatware. Everywhere you look: bloatware. We need someone to come up with an anti-bloatware flame-thrower.
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ppurka
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

avx wrote:
ppurka wrote:
There can be other nicer outcomes from these advances. For example, 3D graphics for education.
Of course, but is it really needed to have this in a browser which is constantly getting attacked?

Besides, watching this stuff usually incorporates some kind of workflow and there are better tools for that. There are already specialized tools for CAD, medical/chemical/physical stuff, etc. What's the benefit of reinventing the wheel, espacially when many of that software is very well written and uses way less ressources then a webapp could ever use(in the forseeable future).
There are a lot of mathematics and scientific software that have web frontends. Take the ipython web interface, Sage's web interface, and several others if you search for them.

The whole point is to have a zero-install frontend to small scientific computations that can be used by students or casual users. If you want the full blown thing, then you can download it and work with it locally. Moreover, having a web frontend is also easy on the developers (once you have something working) - one doesn't need to fiddle around with GUI programming and stuff. You can also make the software readily accessible from all possible OSs. Everyone can run a browser, so it doesn't take any more resources.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ppurka wrote:
The whole point is to have a zero-install frontend to small scientific computations that can be used by students or casual users.
Yeah yeah, ever seen how the list of deps for Chromium got longer and longer :lol:

I'm with BoneKracker, do one thing well.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

avx wrote:
ppurka wrote:
The whole point is to have a zero-install frontend to small scientific computations that can be used by students or casual users.
Yeah yeah, ever seen how the list of deps for Chromium got longer and longer :lol:
Well, I never said it all works only with chromium. Use any browser - as long as it can display webpages and render js properly, it will work fine. (Now, don't tell me you never use a web browser :roll: )
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most things I see lately pretend to only work in Chrome and Safari, I'm used to be blocked in Opera, but not even letting Firefox in is just insane for that kind of "features".

Of course I'm using a browser, daily, but I'm not using anything of the modern web, the most "advanced" thing I use is YouTube and even there, I'm downloading the videos and watch them with mplayer.

Now that even the BBC is driving for adding DRM to HTML5 I don't know what to say except that isn't the kind of web I'm used to and used to love.

15 years ago, it was about spreading news and education, today one really has to dig hard for a piece of text somewhere in between ads and useless MB-sized pictures. I don't want to see what people are eating using the most awesome cameras of our time, but applying weird filters making it look like WW2. How about ditching our IRC channels and giving support via Twitter and who the f* cares if one split his butt taking a dump, still people post that kind of stuff on crapbook - now thanks to tablets and mobiles, they're doing it directly from their toilette.

Maybe I'm alone, but I fail to see how that is bringing mankind forward, while all good attempts are killed instantly because of bogus copyrights.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Abuses of web technologies are beside the point. What I wanted to say is that there could be some good use to new technologies. There are always abuses of any new technology. New tech on the internet just happens to be more quickly set to all the wrong uses.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ppurka, that's a nice idea, but the trouble is that the majority of people in education/academics use ancient browsers which are unable to display most new interactive stuff.
I've been working on web interfaces for science projects and you'd be surprised what some people still use. So I usually stick to simple html + php and try to avoid complicated CSS and JS.

So in the end, new technologies are useless without a user base.

And the worst part is the fast deprecation of web standards and technologies vs. slow adoption by browsers. Just look at all the new CSS3 features replacing SVG, while even a quite simple CSS based page still renders differently in major browsers. Or webgl replacing X3D, which replaced VRML97. Who's going to port all those complicated mesh models to some webgl?

I think the main problem here is that most of these new features are developed by rather young enthusiasts and entrepreneurs which are very creative and ambitious enough to think they can implement something in a completely different and better way. I believe they have a mentality of an artist. But they forget that IT is an industry and that their opinions and experiments will impact billions of users !!! Other established industries have regulations to prevent such destructive development movements. Do you think you can sell a car you made if it doesn't meet all the safety requirements, etc. ? Can you drive a car if it fails the tests at your local garage? You get the picture. The only sector of the IT industry that is really regulated is the crypto* sector. Of course, there's the question where to draw the line in IT between art/intellectual property and industry. And freedom of expression, intellectual rights and what not. But in the end,a large part of IT is an industry impacting way to many people to remain completely free of regulations.

So, I think IT/web standards should simply be enforced on the industry level, e.g. software could be released with a label "for general/public use" only if it complies to the standards and some QA policies. I'd say the EU will start regulating IT in this way very soon (it already does in some ways, e.g. IIRC in the UK all sites must inform you about saving cookies).

I used Opera quite a lot and know many people that still do, because IMHO it's about the best major Internet suite. Opera Mobile is still very cool.

tl;dr: you can't drive an ancient car and can't sell a car you made without proper QA. So why should browsers with experimental futures, lacking support for older standards be released as for general use and old, non-compliant browsers be supported? IT is an industry, not some MIT lab.
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