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pjp
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 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:19 am Post subject: :rotflmao: Raising minimum wage will bring jobs back to US |
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LOL
I couldn't have heard that correctly, did I? That's better than selling a bridge in the desert!
If only this guy could sell stuff to people with money to buy, we'd be out of debt in no time.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:24 am Post subject: |
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Who said that? 
Right. The only thing that will "bring back" is some of the Mexican illegal immigrants who left during the recession.
On the contrary, it will drive those few low-skill manufacturers who aren't off-shoring away, and it will drive some people (growers of fruits and vegetables which must be hand-picked, for example) out of business.
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pjp
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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Obama. It was on the local news last night when I posted, but I think I must've misheard.
It looked like the speech he gave yesterday at the company (Virginia, Carlina? I forget where). But I listened to that speech, and it didn't include anything like what I thought I'd heard.
Oddly enough, it did include a comment he made about lowering corporate taxes being a Good Thing (rewarding companies hiring in the US rather than rewarding them for outsourcing / offshoring).
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, he says a lot of things.
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juniper
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big dave
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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overwhelmingly, people in the other toll road thread admitted that if you raise the cost of something, they do it less. if things are cheaper, people tend to do it more... that's why we have a huge system of tax deductions.
during the recession, many states started "back-to-work" programs where the state would pay a substantial portion of an employee's wages if that person had been previously unemployed for 6+ months or so. if krugman is correct, then all of these states are completely wrong... every single one of these states, which effectively cut their minimum wage in half, apparently don't understand krugman's fairy tale economics.
if fairy tale economics are true, then the tax system is a total sham. why do we have a solar deductions if that doesn't incentivize anyone to do anything about it? why do we have a marriage deduction? why do we have charitable deductions? why do we have increased taxes on bad things like cigarettes, and tobacco, and processed food? in fairy tale economics, none of these incentive systems matter. so why do we have them at all? why do we even need the IRS then? |
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pjp
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Among all of the absurdity in the article, he's at least not claiming higher labor costs will bring back jobs.
But, wow, for a supposedly educated economist, he likes to perpetuate lies (or at least misrepresent facts). For example, higher productivity is not a measure of minimum wage worker performance.
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juniper
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | Among all of the absurdity in the article, he's at least not claiming higher labor costs will bring back jobs.
But, wow, for a supposedly educated economist, he likes to perpetuate lies (or at least misrepresent facts). For example, higher productivity is not a measure of minimum wage worker performance. |
I don't understand your second paragraph. |
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juniper
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| big dave wrote: | overwhelmingly, people in the other toll road thread admitted that if you raise the cost of something, they do it less. if things are cheaper, people tend to do it more... that's why we have a huge system of tax deductions.
during the recession, many states started "back-to-work" programs where the state would pay a substantial portion of an employee's wages if that person had been previously unemployed for 6+ months or so. if krugman is correct, then all of these states are completely wrong... every single one of these states, which effectively cut their minimum wage in half, apparently don't understand krugman's fairy tale economics.
if fairy tale economics are true, then the tax system is a total sham. why do we have a solar deductions if that doesn't incentivize anyone to do anything about it? why do we have a marriage deduction? why do we have charitable deductions? why do we have increased taxes on bad things like cigarettes, and tobacco, and processed food? in fairy tale economics, none of these incentive systems matter. so why do we have them at all? why do we even need the IRS then? |
What specifically do you object to?
He rebuts your first paragraph in that labour and commodities are different because of "human factors". As many right wingers say, employers aren't monsters. Generally they will try and get more money, but if the loss is marginal (say a modest increase in minimum wage), an employer may simply suck it up or pass it on to the customer just to save a job. Unlike copper or gold, if the price shoots up, I just won't buy it. However, no one is at a competitive disadvantage here since the minimum wage is uniformly applied. |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Krugman hasn't been right about anything this millennium, seems unable to adapt, and has gone moonbat since seeing his Keynsian world go up in flames. Krugma. Would have us become a giant Greece, leading the world into a new Dark Age.
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Muso
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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He's consistently wrong, so no surprise here.
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juniper
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | Krugman hasn't been right about anything this millennium, seems unable to adapt, and has gone moonbat since seeing his Keynsian world go up in flames. Krugma. Would have us become a giant Greece, leading the world into a new Dark Age. |
taking your statement literally, one finds it is false. In fact, he predicted the housing bubble before it happened in 2005.
housing market will slowdown and cause an economic downturn, says Krugman
so, he was at least right about one (major) thing. |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | Krugman hasn't been right about anything this millennium, seems unable to adapt, and has gone moonbat since seeing his Keynsian world go up in flames. Krugma. Would have us become a giant Greece, leading the world into a new Dark Age. |
taking your statement literally, one finds it is false. In fact, he predicted the housing bubble before it happened in 2005.
housing market will slowdown and cause an economic downturn, says Krugman
so, he was at least right about one (major) thing. |
Is that what we had? A "downturn"? If the weather man predicted a warm front and low pressure cell, and you had a the worst hurricane of the century, would say he was "right"?
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wildhorse
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | Is that what we had? A "downturn"? If the weather man predicted a warm front and low pressure cell, and you had a the worst hurricane of the century, would say he was "right"? |
Yes, so far it was just a downturn. Wait till you guys hit the bottom when your financial industry gets too big to be saved.
Besides, your analogy sucks. And where do you see a weather man? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92NlRv_2L2c |
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juniper
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | Krugman hasn't been right about anything this millennium, seems unable to adapt, and has gone moonbat since seeing his Keynsian world go up in flames. Krugma. Would have us become a giant Greece, leading the world into a new Dark Age. |
taking your statement literally, one finds it is false. In fact, he predicted the housing bubble before it happened in 2005.
housing market will slowdown and cause an economic downturn, says Krugman
so, he was at least right about one (major) thing. |
Is that what we had? A "downturn"? If the weather man predicted a warm front and low pressure cell, and you had a the worst hurricane of the century, would say he was "right"? |
that article was from 2005, well before the crash. in that article he says.
| Krugman wrote: |
That's why it's so ominous to see signs that America's housing market, like the stock market at the end of the last decade, is approaching the final, feverish stages of a speculative bubble. |
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mcgruff
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:38 am Post subject: |
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One of the most fascinating things about capitalism - the rampant, untamed, libertarian kind - is how little its most fervent cheerleaders understand about how capitalism works. Occasional bouts of socialism are essential to its proper function because these provide vital corrective inputs which cannot be initiated by market forces in their purest form.
If you doubt that ask yourself this: if workers can't afford to buy market goods, what happens to the markets..?
Just step outside. You'll see.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:41 am Post subject: |
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Thousands of people were saying such things, and the devastation wrought by our ill-conceived housing policies so far exceeded that caused by Bill Clinton's stock market bubble that comparing the two is indeed like comparing a routine weather front to a "storm of the century" hurricane. No, this is not evidence he "got something right"; it's evidence that he didn't have any idea of the magnitude or real nature of the problem.
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pjp
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | I don't understand your second paragraph. |
| Quote: | | For about four decades, increases in the minimum wage have consistently fallen behind inflation, so that in real terms the minimum wage is substantially lower than it was in the 1960s. Meanwhile, worker productivity has doubled. Isn’t it time for a raise? |
"worker productivity" != minimum wage worker.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | One of the most fascinating things about capitalism - the rampant, untamed, libertarian kind - is how little its most fervent cheerleaders understand about how capitalism works. Occasional bouts of socialism are essential to its proper function because these provide vital corrective inputs which cannot be initiated by market forces in their purest form.
If you doubt that ask yourself this: if workers can't afford to buy market goods, what happens to the markets..?
Just step outside. You'll see. |
I agree that capitalism must be somewhat attenuated by socialist reforms in a several areas. However, your last sentence implies current economic problems are the result of unfettered capitalism, when in truth they're far more the unintended consequences of government meddling in markets (e.g., housing) and excessive government borrowing to enable enable socio-politically indulgent over-spending.
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big dave
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | | ask yourself this: if workers can't afford to buy market goods, what happens to the markets..? |
show many ANYTHING credible that shows US consumers can't afford essentials any time in the last year. the only one talking about some doom and gloom scenario where no one can afford shit is you.
back here in reality, when consumers can't afford goods, the price of those goods come down. |
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mcgruff
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:52 am Post subject: |
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You seem to be saying that you aren't aware of any drop in demand - is that correct?
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:56 am Post subject: |
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Corporal Strawman Strikes Again!
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mcgruff
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big dave
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:18 am Post subject: |
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you're the one rebutting an ridiculous argument that no one else made.
again, show me ANYTHING credible that shows US consumers can't afford essentials any time in the last year... |
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pjp
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:20 am Post subject: |
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Are the destitute, homeless and the poorest of the poor by definition excluded from being referred to as "US consumers?" I'm not sure I understand your request, so I'm trying to clarify.
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