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iplayfast
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:00 am    Post subject: 2012 install piece of garbage. Reply with quote

I'm sorry, but it is. I'm a long time gentoo user. I first installed from stage 1 years ago, and thought the instructions made sense and were easy to follow. If I remember it was 15 megabytes, and I was able to build a complete system from there.

This one, I downloaded gigabytes of data.
First surprise, the wireless doesn't work.
Second surprise, after downloading for hours, there's not any source to compile the wireless modules.
Third surprise, there's no image to install
Fourth surprise there's no install script. I'm still supposed to do it manually.

I thought that when I was downloading a live CD I was getting the same sort of thing that knoppix, ubuntu, debian, redhat, centos and EVERY OTHER FRICKING DISTRO has had for years (decade),--- an install script.

I love gentoo because I can get the latest and greatest software. But man I really hate installing it.

It's like it's hard just to prove the point that Gentoo is for experts only.

I'm not looking for help. I'm an experienced Linux user I'm just ranting because I can't use this Distro without going through all this PAIN of installation! I don't understand the point of the Live CD. It doesn't give any way to install, and can only be used as a live CD.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which is the point of the live DVD.
It's not an installation medium.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To download a live _DVD_, of all things, and then have no opportunity to install the OS
from the DVD seems to me a startlingly dumb idea. It used to annoy me when the Gentoo CDs
played that trick, but I suppose it was partly justified on the grounds of space. With a DVD
it should be possible at least to add a Stage 3 and Portage snapshot to get users started.

Will
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Linux from Scratch folks have the same issue...and they don't even care! Scandalous.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's why when I install a Gentoo/Funtoo box, I use SystemRescueCD, I don't need a big DVD as my main media during the installation process.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And sysresccd provides more, or better networking support (read wireless support), which cannot be included IIRC due to licensing issues in the normal gentoo livecd/livedvd.

@OP: gentoo install in not painful, it is just time consuming. if time consuming is the same as painful for you, then I suggest you start looking for another distro. a source based distro just takes more time to install (and maintain) compared to a binary one (and I am only counting the compile process). the config time afterwards should be the same.

just my .02$
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMHO (yes, just _my_ opinion):
- A LiveCD / LiveDVD is used when you want to run a LiveOS, that is if you wanna be able to run Gentoo without installing it, if you frequently switch computers and wanna keep a single OS. In this situation, you use a flashdrive for the LiveOS or at least for your personal files.
- An intall is done from the installation medium (available here) which is way smaller (about 150M) and is absolutely capable of booting any system. The network support is yet another issue and SystemRescueCD may have a better support, but I can't tell as my on-board RealTek network cards have always been recognized by the installCD kernel.

I'd add that SystemRescueCD has yet another purpose as its goal is to make you boot a damaged installation to recover files or a full system.

So the fact that the liveCD doesn't have an installer seems quite normal to me. OTOH, I still think it would be possible to adapt AIF (ArchLinux Installation Framework) to a gentoo _all default_ install. That would require someone to take on that project though.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So the fact that the liveCD doesn't have an installer seems quite normal to me. OTOH, I still think it would be possible to adapt AIF (ArchLinux Installation Framework) to a gentoo _all default_ install. That would require someone to take on that project though.

There was a long time age (the OP should know it) a Project called GRP (Gentoo Reference Platform) which provided binary packages, and allowed fast installation. This was also at a time, when the livecd (or installcd back then) was released every 3 month, and the packages were matching for a particular portage snapshot.
IMO, yes it allowed fast installation, but you were highly restricted in useflags, and archs. I do not know the exact reasons, why it got dropped, but I guess it was just outdated to fast, and hardware was still getting fast enough that less people were using it. In addition, to take full advantage of the speed of gentoo (especially on older hardware), you had to rebuild the packages either way.

Therewas a follow-up project to provide an installer script on the livecd/dvd, but i caused so much problems, that it was ditched again.
I guess, it should be possible to create an automated install script, but then the restriction applied on that would also be rather high (minimal disk requirements, wired network, predefined make.conf). any customization would cause to much (possible) errors, that it should be avoided. therefore an gentoo installer would just give you an plain cli only gentoo install - which is a great basis for a server, but IMO not enough for average joe gentoo user.


just my .02$
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Veldrin centos live cd wireless works just fine, and it can install as well! Just doesn't have portage on it.
dmesg shows the wireless issue to be a segfault in the driver. It would have been nice for the kernel source to be included on the live cd so I could attempt to rebuild the module.

Gentoo install is painful AND slow. I am willing to live with it. However a 3 hour download of a livecd wastes my bandwidth and yours if it doesn't include the stage 3 install, or even the gentoo handbook. installed locally. I don't know why there even is a Live CD. What's it's purpose? To show off what gentoo can do? At the user level it looks pretty much like every other distro out there, and they can install onto the system from their live CD, so it ends up just making Gentoo look stupid.


Am I making sense here? We have a Live CD that makes us look bad, doesn't include any of the parts that make Gentoo good, (ok emerge may be there, but not very useful) Doesn't have anything to show why anyone would actually want to switch to Gentoo.

The reason I was re-installing on this system was that I wanted to get back to a clean system. I went Sabayon before just to avoid the install, but they use grub2 which seems to fight me every step of the way. Also many conflicts between updates to the point where I wanted to start fresh. It pisses me off that I have to work so hard to install this distro.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Veldrin wrote:
There was a long time age (the OP should know it) a Project called GRP (Gentoo Reference Platform) which provided binary packages, and allowed fast installation. This was also at a time, when the livecd (or installcd back then) was released every 3 month, and the packages were matching for a particular portage snapshot.
IMO, yes it allowed fast installation, but you were highly restricted in useflags, and archs. I do not know the exact reasons, why it got dropped, but I guess it was just outdated to fast, and hardware was still getting fast enough that less people were using it. In addition, to take full advantage of the speed of gentoo (especially on older hardware), you had to rebuild the packages either way.

Therewas a follow-up project to provide an installer script on the livecd/dvd, but i caused so much problems, that it was ditched again.
I guess, it should be possible to create an automated install script, but then the restriction applied on that would also be rather high (minimal disk requirements, wired network, predefined make.conf). any customization would cause to much (possible) errors, that it should be avoided. therefore an gentoo installer would just give you an plain cli only gentoo install - which is a great basis for a server, but IMO not enough for average joe gentoo user.


just my .02$
V.

IIRC the last time we saw an installer script (before 2012-04-01 install wizard of course) was in 2006 LiveCD. But that was an automated process, more or less, and I still think (although this conversation would now be better in Gentoo Chat...) AIF could be adapted. AIF is a ncurse script that can make you edit config files, automatically enters a chroot and call the package manager. Apart from files editing and calls to package manager, there's little more in the common install found in the handbook. It could even let you choose between several cron daemons and syslog daemons.

About the USE flag, a ncurse interface letting you choose among global use flags, with their descriptions, a absolutely standard (and bloated, but almost all other distributions kernel are) kernel, and their ya go!

Of course Gentoo is about choice, so you'd still have the possibility to bootstrap your own install the stage# way, but for average joe, it could bring Gentoo Linux to a lot more people. Just my $.02 :wink:
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@iplayfast:
What LiveCD? the only CD I found mentioned so far was the minimal installcd, which is a minimal (less cruft) and primarily and installcd. Unfortunately (or by design) it does not have a lot of wireless support. (IMO wireless is an auxiliary channel, which can be used for fun. any heavy duty networking should run via wires)
The LiveDVD is designed to show how gentoo linux looks like, and to some lesser extent how it works. IIRC there are as many different DEs on the LiveDVD as possible, just to do that.

Quote:
@Veldrin centos live cd wireless works just fine, and it can install as well! Just doesn't have portage on it.
dmesg shows the wireless issue to be a segfault in the driver. It would have been nice for the kernel source to be included on the live cd so I could attempt to rebuild the module.
I am just curious what kind of wireless card we are talking about. If it is realtek, i am not to much surprised, that is does not work. I had several realtek cards (unfortunalely, only wired ones) that would work with one driver, would suddenly stop after an upgrade, and after another one or two upgrade it would start working again - and this not only happened in linux, but also in windows.
In addition, centos (I assume you are using 6.2 or what ever the latest one is) is using a heavily patched LTS kernel (or as they refer to it 2.6.32 and 2.6.35 hybrid kernel) which is nowhere else available (except for redhat, where they source it).

I agree, that the gentoo livecd/installcd had seen better days, but then again it is amazing what they achieve with their automated build script.

Quote:
Of course Gentoo is about choice, so you'd still have the possibility to bootstrap your own install the stage# way, but for average joe, it could bring Gentoo Linux to a lot more people. Just my $.02 :wink:
I agree, that we should continue this elsewhere.
OHTH, average joe gentoo user at this time, is still not capable of reading portage output, understanding error messages, and just try to fix things yourself.
If you give them an automated installer, I guess it would make the average user even more ignorant, than he is now already.


V.

PS. I hope, this does not get too overheated...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Vldrin OK, I mispoke. LiveDVD, not LiveCD

wireless has never been an issue with this laptop, until this LiveDVD. Centos was just an example, I've used gentoo on this laptop before. Just wanted to start fresh, and am regretting my decision.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:42 pm    Post subject: Re: 2012 install piece of garbage. Reply with quote

iplayfast wrote:

First surprise, the wireless doesn't work.


Saying it doesn't work doesn't really help us help you. Why doesn't it work? What wireless adapter do you have? These are questions which can help us add better support in the future.

iplayfast wrote:

Second surprise, after downloading for hours, there's not any source to compile the wireless modules.


What do you expect the livedvd to include all sources for every piece of hardware? pfft

iplayfast wrote:

Third surprise, there's no image to install


It makes no sense to include a portage snapshot or stage tarball into the livedvd as those two archives will become outdated pretty quickly. This is why we have weekly install stages ;)

iplayfast wrote:

Fourth surprise there's no install script. I'm still supposed to do it manually. I thought that when I was downloading a live CD I was getting the same sort of thing that knoppix, ubuntu, debian, redhat, centos and EVERY OTHER FRICKING DISTRO has had for years (decade),--- an install script.

Gentoo is a source based distribution and having an install wizard cannot satisfy everyone and just brings more complexity to the whole process. IMHO an install wizard will just bring more problems and developer should just focus on better things.


iplayfast wrote:

It's like it's hard just to prove the point that Gentoo is for experts only.


Gentoo is for anyone that can follow directions as the handbook very well written and anyone can follow it. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to install Gentoo, you just need to follow directions.

iplayfast wrote:

I'm not looking for help. I'm an experienced Linux user I'm just ranting because I can't use this Distro without going through all this PAIN of installation! I don't understand the point of the Live CD. It doesn't give any way to install, and can only be used as a live CD.


The livedvd is only meant to showcase the current state of the portage tree, a way for users to test drive the various desktop environments, window managers and packages available in Gentoo Linux. You STILL need to follow the handbook to install Gentoo.

Arkjelion wrote:
There was a long time age (the OP should know it) a Project called GRP (Gentoo Reference Platform)


IIRC it was actually called "Gentoo Release Packages - GRP".
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo Reference Platform From the 2005.1 handbook

You can install from the liveDVD if you wish. There are several guides that get you various installs but if you follow any of thise guides you get likewohas Gentoo not yours.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 2012 install piece of garbage. Reply with quote

likewhoa wrote:
iplayfast wrote:

First surprise, the wireless doesn't work.


Saying it doesn't work doesn't really help us help you. Why doesn't it work? What wireless adapter do you have? These are questions which can help us add better support in the future.

ahem, I believe I stated I wasn't looking for help. Are the forums <rant> tags not working?

likewhoa wrote:
iplayfast wrote:

Second surprise, after downloading for hours, there's not any source to compile the wireless modules.


What do you expect the livedvd to include all sources for every piece of hardware? pfft


Yes, I would expect the source for the kernel to be present. It would have saved me a lot of time.


likewhoa wrote:
iplayfast wrote:

Third surprise, there's no image to install


It makes no sense to include a portage snapshot or stage tarball into the livedvd as those two archives will become outdated pretty quickly. This is why we have weekly install stages ;)

It does make sense in a rolling distro to have a snapshot of the system when the LiveDVD was made. The beauty of the rolling distro is that it CAN BE UPDATED!

likewhoa wrote:
iplayfast wrote:

Fourth surprise there's no install script. I'm still supposed to do it manually. I thought that when I was downloading a live CD I was getting the same sort of thing that knoppix, ubuntu, debian, redhat, centos and EVERY OTHER FRICKING DISTRO has had for years (decade),--- an install script.

Gentoo is a source based distribution and having an install wizard cannot satisfy everyone and just brings more complexity to the whole process. IMHO an install wizard will just bring more problems and developer should just focus on better things.

Look we've got a 3rd stage download now, so we aren't optimizing for individual PC's anymore anyways. To me it would make more sense to get an install where with a few clicks you get a working system, and then can start re-emerging the items you want to optimized, or do whatever with.

likewhoa wrote:
iplayfast wrote:

It's like it's hard just to prove the point that Gentoo is for experts only.


Gentoo is for anyone that can follow directions as the handbook very well written and anyone can follow it. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to install Gentoo, you just need to follow directions.

Yeah I've been there done that, don't want the shirt. The point is, a LiveDVD that doesn't allow you to install is pointless.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo has always had a no questions asked refund policy. If you're not totally satisfied, we'll give you a courteous refund of every penny you paid. :wink:

iplayfast wrote:
Look we've got a 3rd stage download now, so we aren't optimizing for individual PC's anymore anyways.
This actually turns out not to be the case. After you set your CFLAGS and USE flags, everything you emerge is optimized for your individual PC. In the course of normal updates, over time, everything will be optimized. However, many people issue an
Code:
emerge -e system
just as soon as the system will boot on its own so that it will be fully optimized from the start.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
Gentoo has always had a no questions asked refund policy. If you're not totally satisfied, we'll give you a courteous refund of every penny you paid.

- John
:lol:

Additionally, for most Gentoo users the official install media is not important, there have been voices suggesting to stop releasing them and we could have a distro which has no install CD/DVD.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover wrote:
John R. Graham wrote:
Gentoo has always had a no questions asked refund policy. If you're not totally satisfied, we'll give you a courteous refund of every penny you paid.

- John
:lol:

Additionally, for most Gentoo users the official install media is not important, there have been voices suggesting to stop releasing them and we could have a distro which has no install CD/DVD.


That seems to me to be a much better approach than having a LiveDVD that really confuses and annoys people.

Will
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
Gentoo has always had a no questions asked refund policy. If you're not totally satisfied, we'll give you a courteous refund of every penny you paid. :wink:

Careful there, I actually contributed some bucks to this distro. :)



Most gentoo users don't care about the install media, because they are already users and don't need to install. I'm just saying it would make so much more sense to have a basic install media, that sets up a basic system, that we can then run with.

Even hijack some other distro's install, and set up a really basic gentoo. It would save so much effort. I could then set some USE flags, and compile defaults, emerge kde, gnome etc and go to bed, and wake up with my system in place. Doesn't that make more sense then what we have now?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

im not suprised wireless didnt work out of the box... you can expect that, even installing windows dvd on a laptop, i just did and wireless didn't work till i found and installed the correct driver.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

djdunn wrote:
im not suprised wireless didnt work out of the box... you can expect that, even installing windows dvd on a laptop, i just did and wireless didn't work till i found and installed the correct driver.

Do I understand you correctly? You think that it's acceptable and understandable that a linux driver doesn't work because windows has problems? I think maybe you are on the wrong site.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MS Windows is a commercial software. You pay for it and you expect it to work and be secure. (It fails on both accounts.)

Gentoo Linux is a DIY Linux. You do have absolute control over it from very beginning. It is FOSS. Meaning you have all rights to improve it and you have no rights to moan.

If you do not like a 'manual distro' do not use it. There are plenty of alternatives. I personally really like Debian. Why don't you give it a try?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iplayfast wrote:
I'm not looking for help. I'm an experienced Linux user I'm just ranting because I can't use this Distro without going through all this PAIN of installation!
Which is why this was moved from Installing Gentoo to Gentoo Chat.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iplayfast wrote:
djdunn wrote:
im not suprised wireless didnt work out of the box... you can expect that, even installing windows dvd on a laptop, i just did and wireless didn't work till i found and installed the correct driver.

Do I understand you correctly? You think that it's acceptable and understandable that a linux driver doesn't work because windows has problems? I think maybe you are on the wrong site.


not exactly no, more just pointing out unrealistic expectations of 100% working live disk on any combination of hardware. i find the idea of trying to have a boot everything disk to be somewhat futile. Too many combinations to get it 100% however 60-70% with the basics working i find more than acceptable. I never started using Gentoo cause it set up everything for me. i dont expect sound, wireless, advanced video drivers, and a number of other things to just work on a live disk, till they get properly installed and configured.

i consider each of my gentoo machines i set up to be unique.

not to mention i loathe wifi i dont know why, it just annoys me like java does...

i know for sure im not in the wrong place
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that, like, a serious rant? Because I can't see the point of it, in any of the arguments given (except maybe for including the handbook). :lol:

Seriously, RTFM and behave like a real long term Gentoo user. ;) Plus, report the bug about wireless so it can be fixed and others benefit.
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