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juniper
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:51 am    Post subject: LOL silly govt: Canada can't deal with CFL mercury fallout Reply with quote

Unlike some free market and gun fanatics here, I call it like it is.

Idiot govt can't deal with CFL bulbs pushed on the population

They have set up a system where you have to buy these mercury bulbs (by outlawing other bulbs), and now can't deal with disposal. Of course, while trying to look green, they have set up a system where electrical consumption may have dipped slightly, but people in SUVs can still drive all over the place.

Crank up the price of gas and electricity with a tax. Then watch the free market work its magic, I say. Someone will make a good bulb, economically viable and easy to dispose of. People will drive less. Smiles all round.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hiking up electricity prices is industrial suicide. The west is already horrifically deindustrialised and unproductive. The problem with electricity isn't electrical, it's dirty energy sources.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought of this 5-6 years ago already. Most people dump bulbs in the trash and almost all of them are not even aware there's mercury in them. You should see the surprised looks I got when I told some coworkers at work. They didn't believe me.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:facepalm:

I dunno what it's like here. I'm aware there's mercury in those CFLs and I think all people I know are as well. You can also return the CFLs at several places, so if people are aware of the Hg, they can easily deposit of them properly. But yeah, the people I know might not be representative for the whole populace, so who knows how many CFLs get dumped in landfills.

On the other hand, I've not had one broken CFL in years.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:24 pm    Post subject: Re: LOL silly govt: Canada can't deal with CFL mercury fall Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Unlike some free market and gun fanatics here, I call it like it is.
:rotflmao:
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
Hiking up electricity prices is industrial suicide. The west is already horrifically deindustrialised and unproductive. The problem with electricity isn't electrical, it's dirty energy sources.


it will lower use and get more investment money. You are right, infrastructure investment is terrible. I don't see how my solution hurts.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
aidanjt wrote:
Hiking up electricity prices is industrial suicide. The west is already horrifically deindustrialised and unproductive. The problem with electricity isn't electrical, it's dirty energy sources.

it will lower use and get more investment money. You are right, infrastructure investment is terrible. I don't see how my solution hurts.

How will lowering electricity consumption be helpful? If you're not using electricity then you're outsourcing work to china or some other place where electricity is dirt cheap, dirt cheap and filthy. Most industrial processes aren't just power hungry out of laziness, they're just physically energy intensive jobs and there's no way around it bar thermodynamics-disregarding magic. We need clean energy, not expensive energy for expensive's sake.

Industrial processing already has sufficient self-interest to use less electricity when their million pound bills come in, nor should we be depending on private industry to generate R&D anyway, for one, they horde gained knowledge, making it inaccessible requiring a duplication of effort and expense, or worse, expensive/liable to others due to patenting. It's this combination of taxation, then the government shirking its new assumed responsibility to actually solve the problem which is crippling us. Taxes never solved anything other than government accounting. You have to put money into more than just a vast bureaucratic empire to actually solve problems. On the contrary, the closer you put the money into the solution or solution generator, the less waste you have, which reduces the bureaucratic liability from government accounting.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
juniper wrote:
aidanjt wrote:
Hiking up electricity prices is industrial suicide. The west is already horrifically deindustrialised and unproductive. The problem with electricity isn't electrical, it's dirty energy sources.

it will lower use and get more investment money. You are right, infrastructure investment is terrible. I don't see how my solution hurts.

How will lowering electricity consumption be helpful? If you're not using electricity then you're outsourcing work to china or some other place where electricity is dirt cheap, dirt cheap and filthy. Most industrial processes aren't just power hungry out of laziness, they're just physically energy intensive jobs and there's no way around it bar thermodynamics-disregarding magic. We need clean energy, not expensive energy for expensive's sake.

Industrial processing already has sufficient self-interest to use less electricity when their million pound bills come in, nor should we be depending on private industry to generate R&D anyway, for one, they horde gained knowledge, making it inaccessible requiring a duplication of effort and expense, or worse, expensive/liable to others due to patenting. It's this combination of taxation, then the government shirking its new assumed responsibility to actually solve the problem which is crippling us. Taxes never solved anything other than government accounting. You have to put money into more than just a vast bureaucratic empire to actually solve problems. On the contrary, the closer you put the money into the solution or solution generator, the less waste you have, which reduces the bureaucratic liability from government accounting.


Yes, but on the flip side of this companies will not invest in infrastructure unless forced to. Why would I put money into streamlining processes and reducing energy consumption when I can just continue on with the status-quo and put money in my pockets?

If lowering energy consumption is a true goal they should raise electricity prices and offer grants and/or rebates in conjuction to actually get people to convert.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

danomac wrote:
Yes, but on the flip side of this companies will not invest in infrastructure unless forced to. Why would I put money into streamlining processes and reducing energy consumption when I can just continue on with the status-quo and put money in my pockets?

They're not going to invest either way. They'll simply outsource, like I pointed out. And you're assuming that it's physically possible to globally reduce electricity consumption without crippling production. You can't.

danomac wrote:
If lowering energy consumption is a true goal they should raise electricity prices and offer grants and/or rebates in conjuction to actually get people to convert.

No, making clean energy is the true goal. Lowering energy consumption = lowering production = less money in the economy = less jobs for everyone.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
danomac wrote:
If lowering energy consumption is a true goal they should raise electricity prices and offer grants and/or rebates in conjuction to actually get people to convert.

No, making clean energy is the true goal. Lowering energy consumption = lowering production = less money in the economy = less jobs for everyone.


We have hydroelectric dams here. Our electric utility has increased rates and also offered subsidies for upgrades to commercial, industrial, and residential. And guess what? It's been working.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I've heard that propaganda too (on Jeopardy last night they said Canada gets 60% of his power from hydroelectric), but the fact is that Canada's greenhouse gas emissions are (per capita) even worse than the United States' and are the worst in the G8.
http://www.businessinsider.com/wwf-report-says-canada-has-the-worst-emissions-policies-2009-7
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

danomac wrote:
We have hydroelectric dams here. Our electric utility has increased rates and also offered subsidies for upgrades to commercial, industrial, and residential. And guess what? It's been working.

So, in other words, you're using the people and small businesses as a cash cow to give industry artificially cheaper electricity, and this encourages them to do R&D, how?

And the point remains that private R&D, while fine at integrating new discoveries, is a terrible substitute for properly conducted scientific research.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Yeah, I've heard that propaganda too (on Jeopardy last night they said Canada gets 60% of his power from hydroelectric), but the fact is that Canada's greenhouse gas emissions are (per capita) even worse than the United States' and are the worst in the G8.
http://www.businessinsider.com/wwf-report-says-canada-has-the-worst-emissions-policies-2009-7


Well, sure. We have to heat our houses for 10 months of the year, what did you expect? We can't be in shorts at the beach in December like in the US if you want to use generalized statements. We do have a lot of hydroelectric dams, but that really depends on what province you are in.

aidanjt wrote:
So, in other words, you're using the people and small businesses as a cash cow to give industry artificially cheaper electricity, and this encourages them to do R&D, how?

And the point remains that private R&D, while fine at integrating new discoveries, is a terrible substitute for properly conducted scientific research.


Wait, so you're saying just maintain the status quo and don't even try to change? That seems far worse. :roll:
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

danomac wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Yeah, I've heard that propaganda too (on Jeopardy last night they said Canada gets 60% of his power from hydroelectric), but the fact is that Canada's greenhouse gas emissions are (per capita) even worse than the United States' and are the worst in the G8.
http://www.businessinsider.com/wwf-report-says-canada-has-the-worst-emissions-policies-2009-7


Well, sure. We have to heat our houses for 10 months of the year, what did you expect? We can't be in shorts at the beach in December like in the US if you want to use generalized statements. We do have a lot of hydroelectric dams, but that really depends on what province you are in.

Oh, come on. Everybody knows global warming is making things nice up there; it practically ruined your Winter Olympics. Admit it, the real reason is because you're a bunch of backward, wood-burning, snow-mobile-driving, baby-seal-clubbing, dwarf-tossing rednecks. :P
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

danomac wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Yeah, I've heard that propaganda too (on Jeopardy last night they said Canada gets 60% of his power from hydroelectric), but the fact is that Canada's greenhouse gas emissions are (per capita) even worse than the United States' and are the worst in the G8.
http://www.businessinsider.com/wwf-report-says-canada-has-the-worst-emissions-policies-2009-7


Well, sure. We have to heat our houses for 10 months of the year, what did you expect? We can't be in shorts at the beach in December like in the US if you want to use generalized statements. We do have a lot of hydroelectric dams, but that really depends on what province you are in.


canada overheats and over air conditions. I remember living in canada and going to work. You take a sweater to work in the summer and shorts to work in the winter (I kid you not) because of this. Couple that with driving to get milk (overpriced) and you get a population that uses a shitload of energy.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:

They're not going to invest either way. They'll simply outsource, like I pointed out. And you're assuming that it's physically possible to globally reduce electricity consumption without crippling production. You can't.


let me get this straight. Shit will be outsourced because production costs rise even further in the west? Well, you can target your tax. Tax petrol and household electricity.

but you can do other things. You can raise the tax on electricity and lower corporate tax to balance. As for your goal, if your only route to a cleaner environment is clean energy, we might be doomed.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Oh, come on. Everybody knows global warming is making things nice up there; it practically ruined your Winter Olympics. Admit it, the real reason is because you're a bunch of backward, wood-burning, snow-mobile-driving, baby-seal-clubbing, dwarf-tossing rednecks. :P


You forgot 'hockey-playing' in that assessment. ;)
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
aidanjt wrote:

They're not going to invest either way. They'll simply outsource, like I pointed out. And you're assuming that it's physically possible to globally reduce electricity consumption without crippling production. You can't.


let me get this straight. Shit will be outsourced because production costs rise even further in the west? Well, you can target your tax. Tax petrol and household electricity.

but you can do other things. You can raise the tax on electricity and lower corporate tax to balance. As for your goal, if your only route to a cleaner environment is clean energy, we might be doomed.

Yes, of course, because the way to deal with any problem (when you're an authoritarian collectivist) is to either (a) make a law against it and threaten to throw people in jail who disobey; (b) demagogue about it to generate idiotic populist lemming outrage; or (c) fucking Tax it, because that's a "win-win".
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

danomac wrote:
You forgot 'hockey-playing' in that assessment. ;)

And dog sledding.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
juniper wrote:
aidanjt wrote:

They're not going to invest either way. They'll simply outsource, like I pointed out. And you're assuming that it's physically possible to globally reduce electricity consumption without crippling production. You can't.


let me get this straight. Shit will be outsourced because production costs rise even further in the west? Well, you can target your tax. Tax petrol and household electricity.

but you can do other things. You can raise the tax on electricity and lower corporate tax to balance. As for your goal, if your only route to a cleaner environment is clean energy, we might be doomed.

Yes, of course, because the way to deal with any problem (when you're an authoritarian collectivist) is to either (a) make a law against it and threaten to throw people in jail who disobey; (b) demagogue about it to generate idiotic populist lemming outrage; or (c) fucking Tax it, because that's a "win-win".


I avoid a) and b). I have no bones about c) being done. It nudges people, without forcing them to do anything.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course you don't.

However, you don't avoid (b) at all, as evidenced by your ongoing, fallacy-rich campaign against "gun violence".
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Of course you don't.

However, you don't avoid (b) at all, as evidenced by your ongoing, fallacy-rich campaign against "gun violence".


you are always asking for "proof". Various articles give it, with other counter articles.

Perhaps you and Lapierre should realize that part of doing absolutely everything to curb gun violence may involve reducing their numbers. However, we shouldn't cross pollinate threads.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

danomac wrote:
You forgot 'hockey-playing' in that assessment. ;)


Not any more than or better than any other frozen taiga country.
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