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erm67
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LoTeK wrote:

The problem with a vegan diet is that you have to know what you must eat to get all necessary vitamins etc and of course if you are living in a western country for example, with a "normal" diet and then you will just stop eating meat/yogurt etc of course this is not good. Then you maybe become sick or whatever and in the media are often cases of people that don't know what a right vegan diet is and then people think vegan is bad, you know what I mean?


I don't think there is such thing as a 'normal' diet in a western country, some people eats 2 Big Tasty other order a Caesar Salad with Crispy Chicken they are both evils in the eyes of vegans but follow very distinct and different diets.
The fact that eating too much red meat is not good for health doesn't mean going vegan is healthy. There are a lot of shades of "normal diet in a western country" and not all are unhealthy or unethical.
BTW. ever heard of a vegan supercentenarian that followed a vegan diet for most of his life?

That story about centenarian vegan people in the Himalaya you are going to link is FAKE.


LoTeK wrote:

and you have left an important part after the "When I started the vegetarian diet 2005 I knew little about the effect it would have on my performance and strength" part:
Quote:
Expecting at least a slight inverse effect on my training performance I was amazed by the great gains in lean body-mass and strength I got with the meat-free diet


Probably the anabolic steroids he was getting from meat were interfering with the ones he used to pump up the muscles ;-)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:

I've been reading his misanthropic hyperbole for years, and I know he's just grumbling and trying to be funny.


people make that mistake a lot. I am not trying to be funny.
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AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

people can live with an almost completely meat based diet. And be fine. Healthy. Strong.
people who try to live on a vegan diet get sick. Their offspring are small. They are sick.

And don't even start with the 'the right things to eat' bullshit.

a) studies have shown vegans to be sick.

b) just because something is in there does not mean that the body can make use of it. Also known as 'vitamine pill fallacy'. Think of Vit. D and calcium for example. But it is just one of many. And most of it still not really understood. Basics are: we are tuned to be omnivores. Trying to be a herbivore is as healthy as hitting yourself in the face. With a rock.
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AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't think there is such thing as a 'normal' diet in a western country
me too, thats why I wrote "normal".
Quote:
...both evils in the eyes of vegans but follow very distinct and different diets.
well, thats a bit over the top I think..

Quote:
The fact that eating too much red meat is not good for health doesn't mean going vegan is healthy.
And also the fact that a wrong vegan diet is not good for health doesn't imply that a right one isn't good...

Quote:
There are a lot of shades of "normal diet in a western country" and not all are unhealthy or unethical.
agreed

Quote:
BTW. ever heard of a vegan supercentenarian that followed a vegan diet for most of his life?
I don't know and I'm not that interested in such people... One day even the healthiest (vegan :wink: ) yoga-master have to day, and who would want to day with a "unused" , clean body..?! :twisted:

Quote:
Probably the anabolic steroids he was getting from meat were interfering with the ones he used to pump up the muscles ;-)
Could be, but I don't think every bodybuilder, boxer, etc take such things, at least not more than every other athlete...

@energyman76b
haha, it's save to ignore you without missing any deep thoughts :D
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:

I've been reading his misanthropic hyperbole for years, and I know he's just grumbling and trying to be funny.


people make that mistake a lot. I am not trying to be funny.

Well, trying or not, you are. :)
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'd stop eating mammal flesh if it were convenient to do so. I have little problem with the rest, offhand. I had shrimp scampi tonight, and I didn't feel even the remotest twinge of guilt.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
And don't even start with the 'the right things to eat' bullshit.

a) studies have shown vegans to be sick.
:roll:

Far more non-vegans are sick. I've known vegans who are perfectly healthy, and I've known of vegetarians who "did it wrong" and started losing their hair.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
I think I'd stop eating mammal flesh if it were convenient to do so. I have little problem with the rest, offhand. I had shrimp scampi tonight, and I didn't feel even the remotest twinge of guilt.

I have to admit that I wouldn't feel guilty either if I'd eat scampi.. but I think one can at least try to eat less mammal flesh and if one eat some, than one should eat at least everything. I have seen way to many people that order to much and throw the rest away...

Quote:
Far more non-vegans are sick. I've known vegans who are perfectly healthy, and I've known of vegetarians who "did it wrong" and started losing their hair.
yes thats what I meant, one just have to watch more carefully what to eat as a vegan..
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
And don't even start with the 'the right things to eat' bullshit.

a) studies have shown vegans to be sick.
:roll:

Far more non-vegans are sick. I've known vegans who are perfectly healthy, and I've known of vegetarians who "did it wrong" and started losing their hair.


so what? there are far more non-vegans.

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/vegetarian.html

Quote:


Comparisons of the health and longevity of cultures with different dietary habits confirms that meat eaters, such as Eskimos, Nagas and Maasai, can expect to live twice as long as primitive vegetarians. It


Quote:

A study by Drs. W. S. McClellan and E. F. Du Bois (35) found that the Eskimos in Baffin Island and Greenland living on a diet composed almost entirely of meat and fish, and eating no starchy or sugary foods, suffered few diseases. This was not the case with the Labrador Eskimos. They had been 'civilised' and lived on preserved foods, dried potatoes, flour, canned foods and cereals. Among them the diseases of civilisation were rife.
Dr. Sir Robert McCarrison (36) , working in India, similarly compared the northern tribes — Pathans, Sikhs and Hunzas — who ate meat and fresh vegetables, had fine physiques and were healthy and long-lived with the Plains peoples — Madrassis, Bengalis and Kanarese — who ate little meat or milk, living mainly on rice and who were overweight and unhealthy.


Quote:


It is usually better to compare similar populations in the same area as, in the study above, the Asians have a different evolutionary background to northern European Caucasians. One study which did this, compares vegetarians and fresh fish eaters from two neighbouring Bantu villages. (39) This study found that the fish eaters had higher levels of omega-3 fatty acids, lower blood pressure and lower blood fat levels than the vegetarians. Both blood pressure and lipids increased throughout life in vegetarians but remained fairly constant throughout life in the fish eaters.


Quote:

A case control study of over 5000 Italian women was conducted between 1991 and 1994 to assess the influence of high intakes of fat and other macronutrients on breast cancer risk. Dr Franceschi's team found that "The risk of breast cancer decreased with increasing total fat intake . . . whereas the risk increased with increasing intake of available carbohydrates." (45) Foods of vegetable origin tend to have high levels of carbohydrates. That this should be so finds support from Professor Wolfgang Lutz he showed that epidemiological studies failed to support the current belief that fat intake was at the root of coronary disease and cancer and did his own explorations of epidemiological data. His findings show a clear, inverse relationship between diseases of civilisation and the length of time the people of a given region of Europe have had to adapt to the high carbohydrate diet associated with the cultivation of cereal grains that was begun in the Near East, and spread very slowly through Europe. (46)


but don't let facts confuse you.
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Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
Basics are: we are tuned to be omnivores. Trying to be a herbivore is as healthy as hitting yourself in the face. With a rock.


weeeell... not quite

I eat meat when I feel like it. Luckily, in our peasant hillbilly mine-infested country, organic meats are still very easy to find, and not twice the price.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
Basics are: we are tuned to be omnivores. Trying to be a herbivore is as healthy as hitting yourself in the face. With a rock.


weeeell... not quite
.


Don't be silly, vegetarians doesn't need to take vitamin pills to survive, that is soooo deeply stupid .....
Humans can't even fully digest vegetables ...... how can they be considered more similar to herbivores .... total crap.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
Prenj wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
Basics are: we are tuned to be omnivores. Trying to be a herbivore is as healthy as hitting yourself in the face. With a rock.


weeeell... not quite
.


Don't be silly, vegetarians doesn't need to take vitamin pills to survive, that is soooo deeply stupid .....
Humans can't even fully digest vegetables ...... how can they be considered more similar to herbivores .... total crap.


Problem with 90% of vegetarians is that they don't know how to be vegetarians.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah, seriously do you actually believe this?...:
Quote:
Vegetarianism is unnatural. This is not a modern finding. The Bible gives us evidence of this, and clues that vegetarianism was not regarded with favour. In Genesis , Chapter Four, Eve bears Cain and Abel. 'And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.' That 'but' in the middle of the sentence is the first clue to disapproval. This disapproval is confirmed by verses three to five. Abel and Cain bring offerings to God: Abel of his sheep and Cain, the fruits of the ground. God, we are told, had respect for Abel's carnivorous offering, but He had no respect for Cain's vegetarian one.
One of the many faults of the christians ... :)

Look, I've seen websites that showed that the nazis had actually UFO's with leviation-powered motors :lol: and that CO2 is a lie or why we didn't land on the moon and one often finds Dr. blalba, Prof. blabla. Although I was just thinking of searching the whole internet and post every fucking website that shows how bad it is to eat meat etc, I don't want to waste my time. Since the reason why you don't respect this way of life isn't a scientific one but an "emotional" (here strictly in a negative sense) it doesn't matter what is proven and what is not, because even if a strong mathematical prove would exists that a vegan diet is healthy you would find some way to "disprove" it... I've seen such arguing many times and like I said I can't even hear this: "this study showed that, and this that blalba" don't you see that everyone (absolutely regardless of what the topic is) throws around "facts here, facts there", "study here, study there" blablabla

it so gross how people misuse "science", it's maybe even worse than the misuse of religion... I know how such studies work and I think you definitely not, maybe you are a good programmer or gentoo-hacker but you definitely don't understand science (which is of course not bad, but to act that way is rather poor...) or you just like to provoke us and know that your website is bullshit.. if thats the case than its cool, but then I rather want to talk about guns and SUV's :D

My opinion is that we are rather not carnivore, but it doesn't matter because we all can live healthy with or without meat and there are far more things to consider if one wants to be healthy and there are many people who have a very healthy way of life and even so they have cancer or else. This is a way to complex topic to make exact propositions.

Quote:
Don't be silly, vegetarians doesn't need to take vitamin pills to survive, that is soooo deeply stupid .....
Humans can't even fully digest vegetables ...... how can they be considered more similar to herbivores .... total crap.


ah, I'm glad you are here... :)

Quote:
Problem with 90% of vegetarians is that they don't know how to be vegetarians.

90% is highly exaggerated, but you're right and every sane person immediately realizes that this doesn't say anything about vegetarianism, just like BoneKracker's sister (if I recall correct :) ) that buys healthy stuff with her car because she doesn't want to carry her bag doesn't say that healthy stuff is evil or bad..!!!

Quote:
...Otherwise, thousands of years from now anthropologists might conclude that eating McDonald's is natural because humans circa 2012 used to eat a lot of it.
:lol: so true..!!

btw, do you know other such websites? (pros and cons..!) I don't want to search, but like it if someone posts ...
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Last edited by LoTeK on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LoTeK wrote:
Look, I've seen websites that showed that the nazis had actually UFO's with leviation-powered motors

There is no doubt about it. Also: the Russians have uncovered a Nazi UFO (which included technology given them by space aliens) in the ice cap and are now developing rudimentary time travel based on it; ancient proto-Hindu peoples documented antediluvian helicopters; and the Bible shows that so-called "angels" (obviously space aliens) routinely visited Earth to have sex with human females (probably low-ranking crew members breaking the Prime Directive while the officers were busy filling the water tanks or something). I would also like to point out that all these theories originate in Europe (E. von Daniken, for example), so their credibility is without question.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
LoTeK wrote:
Look, I've seen websites that showed that the nazis had actually UFO's with leviation-powered motors

There is no doubt about it. Also: the Russians have uncovered a Nazi UFO (which included technology given them by space aliens) in the ice cap and are now developing rudimentary time travel based on it; ancient proto-Hindu peoples documented antediluvian helicopters; and the Bible shows that so-called "angels" (obviously space aliens) routinely visited Earth to have sex with human females (probably low-ranking crew members breaking the Prime Directive while the officers were busy filling the water tanks or something). I would also like to point out that all these theories originate in Europe (E. von Daniken, for example), so their credibility is without question.

:lol: :lol: yes that's what I'm talking about.. haha the aldebarans, nice to hear this word again... according to my sources the angels were 4 meter tall pre-arians but I'm glad that you also know the truth!! The best thing is maybe the construction plan of the UFO...

http://www.google.ch/search?um=1&hl=de&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=jan+van+helsing+geheimgesellschaften&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41248874,d.Yms&biw=1228&bih=801&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=0FgAUbV9goWFB5W_gIgB but be aware that your whole understandings of humankind and everything else will be different after reading, the struggle of Neo in the matrix movies is nothing compared to that!!
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like my vegans fresh and juicy, on a stick if I may ask.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
so what? there are far more non-vegans.
So what? You were the one associating vegan with health problems.

energyman76b wrote:
but don't let facts confuse you.
Healthy vegans and vegetarians all over the world are fact enough for me. But don't let that interfere with your choice to believe what you want.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildhorse wrote:
I like my vegans fresh and juicy, on a stick if I may ask.

So did Vlad Tcepesch, the hero who saved Europe from the Turkish horde..
Quote:
The victim had his legs yanked apart, by horses attached to ropes, and then a sharpened stake about the size of a fist was inserted between the buttocks, up the anus. The stake was greased with pig-fat to allow ease of inserting, and to stop the body shock that might cause the victim to die too quickly. It was then pushed carefully through the body parallel with the spine so as not to puncture or damage any of the major organs. The impaled person was then lifted above the ground and staked into position where he would die slowly, probably over several days. Sometimes the stake was only partially inserted so that the force of gravity could be allowed to do its work, driving the stake through the body millimetre by millimetre, as the body slowly grazed its way down the stake, until it emerged out of the body, through the mouth or the upper chest cavity, and the victim died in writhing agony.

Mass anal impalement: it's kind of like Obama...
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

haha, I think thats not the answer that the cowboy-guy expected... :lol:
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to eat only vegetables, but the wheelchairs used to get stuck in my teeth. Boom, tish.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
I used to eat only vegetables, but the wheelchairs used to get stuck in my teeth. Boom, tish.
I've been tempted to try, but too afraid of contracting cruciferous spongiform encephalopathy.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:lol:

Or an umbelliferous intraventricular hydrocephalus. :lol:
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swelling of the brain? I'm not finding a concise answer.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Swelling of the brain? I'm not finding a concise answer.

Hydrocephalus is "water on the brain", where fluid builds up in one or more cranial cavities. Intraventricular implies that it's leaking from one cavity to another, or filling multiple cavities. Like cruciferous, umbelliferous is a family of plants (whereas cruciferous means "cross-like" and refers to the stem cross-section, umbelliferous means "hanging" and refers to the flower. Broccoli is a cruciferous vegetable, and carrot is an umbelliferous one.

Are you telling me there's really a disease: cruciferous spongiform encephalopathy? I thought you were making a joke (i.e., "veggies on the brain").
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LoTeK wrote:

My opinion is that we are rather not carnivore, but it doesn't matter because we all can live healthy with or without meat and there are far more things to consider if one wants to be healthy and there are many people who have a very healthy way of life and even so they have cancer or else. This is a way to complex topic to make exact propositions.


Well it is simple:

there 2 sets of food, "vegetables" (A) and "other living beings or derivatives (eggs, dairy ...)" (B)

living beings that can only eat (A) = vegetarian (vegan if human)
living beings that can only eat (B) = carnivore (McDonalds customer if human)
living beings that can eat (A) or (B) = omnivores

A lion cannot eat grass and doesn't need to learn it at school.
A cow cannot eat meat and doesn't need to learn it at school.
A human can eat meat and vegetables.

What is the part of the word omnivores that is not clear or you don't like? I don't see anything someone should be ashamed of being omnivores, it is just a simple harmless word that describes a particular nutritional habit/capability.

Try to say it, maybe slowly when nobody can listen
We are omnivores
it doesn't hurt and you will feel better, being an omnivore still gives you the chance of eating only vegetables, you can eat whatever you want :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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