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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
But hey, I am still waiting for the example of armed citizens protecting their rights. In the USA.

This has been asked before and answered.

It happens every day. Armed people successfully defend themselves or their property from intruders, muggers, rapists, burglars, etc., etc. all the time. Nobody goes trumpeting it on the national news, because it doesn't support the authoritarian leftist agenda. An often-cited case of late is the Los Angeles shop owner who banded together with others from his location to defend their property from the looting mobs of rampant African Americans who were sewing murder, mayhem, and destruction all across the city during the most recent Los Angeles race riot.

As to defense from government oppression, as I have stated before, much of defense is deterrence. The fact that there are 200 millions in the hands of the American people puts a limit on what the state even considers doing. We will never have to hide our friends and neighbors in our lofts, or be herded like cattle into gas chambers, like Europeans have (unless the authoritarian collectivists succeed in disarming us, as they have done in Europe).

But you Europeans go right on ahead and keep telling us how we're doing it wrong, and you know better. Keep telling us how "civilized" you are, and how we just don't get it. :roll:
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
We will never have to hide our friends and neighbors in our lofts, or be herded like cattle into gas chambers, like Europeans have (unless the authoritarian collectivists succeed in disarming us, as they have done in Europe).

Dude, the Usual European (and expat Canuck) suspects here are in total denial that a benign government could turn tyrannical on it's defenseless citizens. We will now have a whole bunch of folks on this forum denying that fascism ever existed.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
We will never have to hide our friends and neighbors in our lofts, or be herded like cattle into gas chambers, like Europeans have (unless the authoritarian collectivists succeed in disarming us, as they have done in Europe).

Dude, the Usual European (and expat Canuck) suspects here are in total denial that a benign government could turn tyrannical on it's defenseless citizens. We will now have a whole bunch of folks on this forum denying that fascism ever existed.

Most Americans are in denial about that too. People simply do not read history or are unable to connect with it as being real, somehow. If they didn't see it happen, then it can't happen. That's why humanity is doomed to forever repeat its mistakes.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you've always lived in the US, I'm not sure if you're entitled to talk about history. You've probably never seen anything old in your life.

This is essentially why the US has a gun problem. It's such a young country with no real history, certainly not compared to the millenia European countries have had to figure out how to live together. Sixteenth-century ideas about republicanism got written in to the newly-formed nation's DNA and somehow got stuck there while the rest of the world moved on.

We don't need guns to resist tyranny in a modern democracy. The old feudalism of aristocracy and monarchy is long gone. The new feudalism is economic in nature. You can't challenge that with a gun; you challenge that by keeping politics close to the people.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Ruby Ridge is a tragedy created by guns. Without them, the conflict would have been resolved by peaceful means through the legal process. His wife and his son died needlessly because of a wilful refusal to accept lawful authority. You do not have the right to use lethal force to resist arrest.

This is not an example of tyranny. There was no deliberate government policy to persecute or oppress anyone. If anything, it's an example of insurrectionism.
Holy effing shit.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
If you've always lived in the US, I'm not sure if you're entitled to talk about history. You've probably never seen anything old in your life.

This is essentially why the US has a gun problem. It's such a young country with no real history, certainly not compared to the millenia European countries have had to figure out how to live together. Sixteenth-century ideas about republicanism got written in to the newly-formed nation's DNA and somehow got stuck there while the rest of the world moved on.

We don't need guns to resist tyranny in a modern democracy. The old feudalism of aristocracy and monarchy is long gone. The new feudalism is economic in nature. You can't challenge that with a gun; you challenge that by keeping politics close to the people.

Thank You for confirming what I said.

Is it willful denial on your part, just wacko knee jerk, or just having a fun time trolling?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@pjp

You think a guy accused of selling sawn-off shotguns is entitled just to tell the court to fuck off?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
Ruby Ridge is a tragedy created by guns. Without them, the conflict would have been resolved by peaceful means through the legal process. His wife and his son died needlessly because of a wilful refusal to accept lawful authority. You do not have the right to use lethal force to resist arrest.

This is not an example of tyranny. There was no deliberate government policy to persecute or oppress anyone. If anything, it's an example of insurrectionism.
Holy effing shit.

He's a good little worker drone. Toss him a bone.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
@pjp

You think a guy accused of selling sawn-off shotguns is entitled just to tell the court to fuck off?

How many millions did the government have to pay Weaver?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not enough to bring back his wife and son.

It's pretty obvious that confrontation would have had a better outcome without guns. He could instead have chosen to defend himself with lawyers in court.

Libertarian nutcases will probably see him as some kind of hero. Me, I think it takes real cowardice to hide behind a gun.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
@pjp

You think a guy accused of selling sawn-off shotguns is entitled just to tell the court to fuck off?
I think you have little understanding of what actually happened.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
Is it willful denial on your part, just wacko knee jerk, or just having a fun time trolling?


If everything you believe in is wrong the truth always seems impossible, outlandish and shocking.

Glad I could put you right :)
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
I think you have little understanding of what actually happened.


I understand that he refused to go to court despite months of pleading. Yes? That was how he should have dealt with any errors and injustices, real or imagined.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for confirming.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
If you've always lived in the US, I'm not sure if you're entitled to talk about history. You've probably never seen anything old in your life.

I'm sure I've seen a lot more of the world than you have (by a factor of ten or so, I'd bet). I know from listening to you in here you've got little life experience, very little understanding of history, a narrow and rather shallow eduction, and are neither well-read nor well-traveled.

mcgruff wrote:
IThis is essentially why the US has a gun problem. It's such a young country with no real history, certainly not compared to the millenia European countries have had to figure out how to live together. Sixteenth-century ideas about republicanism got written in to the newly-formed nation's DNA and somehow got stuck there while the rest of the world moved on.

Moved on my ass. You've been killing each other and ass-fucking the rest of the world non-stop for well over two thousand years. The only reason you're not killing each other at the moment is because you're too weak and poor, and have resorted to an increased level of socialism, like poor, pathetic little sheep huddling during the rain, during your recovery from the devastation you brought on yourselves the last time some of you tried to take the others over. And, you're still carrying on with as much exploitation of the third world as you can get away with.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
I'm sure I've seen a lot more of the world than you have (by a factor of ten or so, I'd bet).


I doubt it. I don't think I've ever met someone so narrow-minded or so belligerent about their narrow-mindedness.

BoneKracker wrote:
Moved on my ass.


Since 1960 or so, more people have been killed by guns in the US than in all the wars America has been involved in during that period combined. That should not happen in a civilised society.

It does happen because the US has chosen to fetishise (european) republican principles which arose centuries ago as a response to the absolute power of feudal monarchies. In this respect, it's rather like an Amish village in the community of nations, left behind by the march of history.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Thanks for confirming.


Read and learn.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
I'm sure I've seen a lot more of the world than you have (by a factor of ten or so, I'd bet).


I doubt it. I don't think I've ever met someone so narrow-minded or so belligerent about their narrow-mindedness.

Coming from you, that's meaningless. The views you have expressed in here are the epitome of narrow-mindedness. Every time you open your mouth, you show the same thing: sophomoric, apostolic faith in what little you know, that bonsai tree reality stamped on your cookie-cutter brain by a sparse but purposeful public education. Your very name has taken on that connotation and people are using it as a tag. True Believer. Naive evangelist. Sophomoric proselytizer.

mcgruff wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Moved on my ass.


Since 1960 or so, more people have been killed by guns in the US than in all the wars America has been involved in during that period combined. That should not happen in a civilised society.

Why single out guns? Illogical. Why not get your panties in a twist over something truly lethal and useless, like alcohol?

mcgruff wrote:
It does happen because the US has chosen to fetishise (european) republican principles which arose centuries ago as a response to the absolute power of feudal monarchies. In this respect, it's rather like an Amish village in the community of nations, left behind by the march of history.

You have a fucking heriditary monarchy and nobility, a state religion, and no constitution. Your empire has dissolved and your national security depends on the good graces of others. Who has really been left behind by the march of history? :roll:
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
You have a fucking heriditary monarchy and nobility, a state religion, and no constitution


Like I said, if you had any understanding of the world, or of history, you'd know the UK has a vestigial monarchy. They don't mean anything except as a kind of royal soap opera, a bit like Downtown Abbey.

Also, you could argue that the UK has much less of a "state religion" than the US has - that's another sign of a mature society, incidentally: the absence of religious dogma in public life. The US is plagued by religious extremists who, despite the constitution, have penetrated institutions of government, the military, and education. The republican party have been actively courting the religious vote as its support falls off a demographic cliff (if you think it'll be a republican president next time around you're in for a shock; weird ideas about rape and abortion don't help there). Evangelism is a big problem in the US military with extreme - and illegal - pressure being applied to soldiers to conform. There have been numerous attempts to get creationist dogma into the classroom, with varying success. And so on.

Religion..? You really don't want to go there.

BoneKracker wrote:
Why single out guns? Illogical. Why not get your panties in a twist over something truly lethal and useless, like alcohol?


Because, since 1960 or so, more people have been killed by guns than in all the wars combined. That's over a million needless deaths. And the best response you can make is to whine about alcohol...
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blaming "assault rifles" for crimes is like blaming airplanes for 9/11
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
You have a fucking heriditary monarchy and nobility, a state religion, and no constitution


Like I said, if you had any understanding of the world, or of history, you'd know the UK has a vestigial monarchy.

Oh, I see. It's kind of like Elton John not being gay and just having a vestgial dick in his ass. :roll:

mcgruff wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Why single out guns? Illogical. Why not get your panties in a twist over something truly lethal and useless, like alcohol?


Because, since 1960 or so, more people have been killed by guns than in all the wars combined. That's over a million needless deaths. And the best response you can make is to whine about alcohol...

Alcohol has killed far, far, more, and it's not a Constitutionally protected right? So why so dick in hand about guns? Oh yeah, I forget, it's that whole authoritarian collectivist thing. :roll:
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
But hey, I am still waiting for the example of armed citizens protecting their rights. In the USA.

This has been asked before and answered.

It happens every day. Armed people successfully defend themselves or their property from intruders, muggers, rapists, burglars, etc., etc. all the time.


beep - and now you are fleeing into semantics.

People in this forum argue with 'the state' as big evil and the deterrent of weapons and/or the possibility to defend their rights if the state tries to take them away.

And I want an example for that.

'Defending your property' does not need guns. It doesn't even need weapons. And it certainly does not need automatic weapons.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
But hey, I am still waiting for the example of armed citizens protecting their rights. In the USA.

This has been asked before and answered.

It happens every day. Armed people successfully defend themselves or their property from intruders, muggers, rapists, burglars, etc., etc. all the time.


beep - and now you are fleeing into semantics.

People in this forum argue with 'the state' as big evil and the deterrent of weapons and/or the possibility to defend their rights if the state tries to take them away.

And I want an example for that.

'Defending your property' does not need guns. It doesn't even need weapons. And it certainly does not need automatic weapons.

You've been given an example. You just refuse to acknowledge it.

If you are defending your property against an armed intruder, you don't need a weapon? What are you gonna do, bore him to death with German humor?

And who is talking about automatic weapons?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
You've been given an example. You just refuse to acknowledge it.


You gave us a guy who could have argued his case in court but instead got his wife and son killed. That doesn't show that guns are required to protect liberty; it shows how guns escalate violence and cause needless deaths.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
...but instead got his wife and son killed.


Wow. You are defending the state to this level? Even the slaying of Sammy & Vicki Weaver by federal thugs won't shake your faith.
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