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Prenj
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Because I know more about the actions and motivations of the players, and because I know something about the domestic terrorism background to the affair.


No you don't. You think you "know". "Know" is domain of ego.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know what you have to do to prove that? Make a proper argument. This should contain an explanation of relevant details about the affair. Also its background so we can put things in some kind of context. You should show how specific facts support your point of view and you should acknowledge those which don't. Don't forget to include references to reputable sources.
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Prenj
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
You know what you have to do to prove that? Make a proper argument. This should contain an explanation of relevant details about the affair. Also its background so we can put things in some kind of context. You should show how specific facts support your point of view and you should acknowledge those which don't. Don't forget to include references to reputable sources.


I have a better idea. I'm just gonna ignore you from now on, because arguing with you doesn't give me anything new, no new perspective, no knew facts or knowledge, except an occasional buzz of squashing yet another state indoctrinated drone. If I felt that proving something to you, or winning an argument would mean that you don't get to vote, I'd do it. But you are just gonna vote blindly for anyone that spins the word "democracy", even it if it meant DDR.

Because, you are psychologically impaired to contemplate the true meaning of the big words like "liberal", "democratic", "progressive", "inalienable human rights", etc etc. When you see a word, you see an ascii string that trigers pavlovian response, you don't think beyond that word. Who put that word there? Who are they? Who are they working for? What is their motivation? Where do I stand in all of this? Do they mean what they say, and how do I check that? What does it mean when they say one thing and do another? Etc etc etc.

I can get better argument from a speech detection program.

So why the fuck should I bother?
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because you're making yourself look like an idiot who can't argue their point of view using evidence and reason, instead resorting to simple abuse in an attempt to browbeat your opponent (do you think it's working?). You haven't introduced a single new fact about Weaver, the BATF, the marshals, etc into this discussion. Not one - and yet you boast about "winning" the debate.

How about trying to understand not "win"?
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Muso
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You lost this debate the moment you attacked the victims of government tyranny, mcgruff. Every argument you make in support of tyranny just makes you look sillier and sillier.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another one who hasn't introduced a single fact about Weaver, the BATF, the marshals, etc into this discussion and yet thinks they've somehow made their opponent lose.
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Muso
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Another one who hasn't introduced a single fact about Weaver, the BATF, the marshals, etc into this discussion and yet thinks they've somehow made their opponent lose.


The facts were introduced when Old School first mentioned Ruby Ridge. For those of us not living in an Orwellian Distortion Bubble, we've known about this disgrace for years. It seems to be a new discovery for you... so what does that say about your information filters?
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The facts are known" :lol:

I bet you win a lot of debates like that. In your own head.
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Muso
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I wrote :

"The facts were introduced when Old School first mentioned Ruby Ridge. For those of us not living in an Orwellian Distortion Bubble, we've known about this disgrace for years. It seems to be a new discovery for you... so what does that say about your information filters?"

How you responded :

mcgruff wrote:
"The facts are known" :lol:

I bet you win a lot of debates like that. In your own head.


Another strawman by our resident Propaganda Loudspeaker.


Here's why I mentioned Old School's post :

Old School wrote:
You want an example of armed citizens protecting their rights? Just look up Ruby Ridge in the English Wikipedia. Read the entire article.

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McGruff
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wikipedia..? I suppose that's a start. Not enough on its own, but at least it's something.

It tells the same basic tale though: a paranoid extremist on a firearms charge holed up in his cabin and refusing to appear in court. There are a lot of allegations flying around from both sides which are hard to judge but the central, crucial fact is the firearms charge. That's solid. Weaver sold two and is on tape offering to set up a regular supply at whatever length was required (although you won't find that last fact on Wikipedia).

The legal position is that a sting operation of this kind isn't necessarily entrapment. It depends. If there is reason to believe the person was ready and willing to do what he did without persuasion, it's not entrapment. In the end the decision by the jury was to drop the charges, presumably because they thought he had been entrapped. Or they might just have decided he's suffered enough.

The wider picture (again you won't find this in the Ruby Ridge Wikipedia article..) is that the BATF were under pressure to make some progress with some serious shit being carried out by the Aryan Nations: bombings, contract killing, counterfeiting, it's a long list. If you knew anything about his extremist views, Weaver was most certainly a legitimate "person of interest".

He's still got rights of course but, after being caught selling illegal firearms, he does not have the right to ignore an order to appear in court. The tragedy is, he probably didn't even need to. We can't know for certain what the outcome of the trial would have been if he had agreed to come in a year earlier but the fact that he was finally acquitted suggests that he would have been successful. Instead, he had a head full of gun-toting, libertarian, insurrectionist nonsense - and three people died.

Cack-handed marshals were the immediate cause of all of the deaths but Weaver can't be absolved of blame for setting up the armed stand-off in the first place. The marshals had a job to do. It wasn't always done well but they still had to do it.

So: government tyranny and oppression? Zero. Mistakes by officials? Sure. Were these mistakes eventually recognised by a system concerned with citizens rights? Yes. A shining example of a libertarian hero successfully defending individual liberty with the power of the gun? Hell no.
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Old School
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
You went to class...?!

See? Now you are just being a little prick.

Just be a nice little unconscious State Drone.
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Muso
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
So: government tyranny and oppression? Zero.


:roll:

/dev/null
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
See? Now you are just being a little prick.

Just be a nice little unconscious State Drone.


You make a very convincing argument. It will take some time to digest all the information and extensive references in your post - you've mentioned several new facts which we haven't yet considered - but I'll get back to you later. Such insightful scholarship on the Ruby Ridge affair demands an equally thoughtful and intelligent response from me you prick.
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Old School
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Old School wrote:
See? Now you are just being a little prick.

Just be a nice little unconscious State Drone.


You make a very convincing argument. It will take some time to digest all the information and extensive references in your post - you've mentioned several new facts which we haven't yet considered - but I'll get back to you later. Such insightful scholarship on the Ruby Ridge affair demands an equally thoughtful and intelligent response from me you prick.

Awww, did I hurt da wittle drone's feelwings? :lol:
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Control we have contact. Over. Jeezchrise he's trying to hug me! Taketheshot taketheshot TAKE THE F*NG SHOT!
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pjp
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
You also have to weigh up the threat posed to the public by letting Weaver go.
What happened was, they tried to force him to endanger his life. They used a very minor charge to try and coerce his behavior. Authority doesn't like being told to fuck off, so they pursued. It makes almost no sense for the ATF to continue putting much effort into this over 2 "illegal" weapons, especially given the material which said nothing significant was happening (significant for the feds, not a local cop or sheriff).

They did it because they were pissed he refused to cooperate. It would be like the DEA going after a drug lord only only to discover it was just a loser with a dime-bag, then trying to continue pursuing as if he were a significant player. The gov't screwed up majorly, and the fallout demonstrates it.

Since you are such an expert on the Ruby Ridge incident, I'd expect you to be familiar with those basic aspects of the case I referenced. I'm familiar with them (and others) from multiple sources from years ago. The few which I referenced happened to be some points I remembered most and tried to locate. Specifically quoted from wp.
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dmitchell
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Epic thread, guys. Can't believe I almost missed this one.

The fact is, while Americans may not need guns to protect themselves from tyranny today, no one knows what the future has in store. We could be dooming future generations.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another example

This one's a little more close to home, this area is only about 1 hour drive from where I live, in fact we (me, the wife, and kid) are about to go there to visit in-laws.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a proud man, my boss is among the Sheriff's opposing expanded gun control laws.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
Epic thread, guys. Can't believe I almost missed this one.

The fact is, while Americans may not need guns to protect themselves from tyranny today, no one knows what the future has in store. We could be dooming future generations.


I'll repeat what I said earlier. Do you think guns actually helped this family? It seems to me if they hadn't had them, they would be alive today.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bigun wrote:
I'm a proud man, my boss is among the Sheriff's opposing expanded gun control laws.
Yep. Here too. (UT isn't playing games... I'll have to remember that).

http://shr.elpasoco.com/ wrote:
Like every elected official in the state, I took an oath to support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of Colorado. This means all rights. [...] I will continue to not only exercise this right but ensure that our law abiding citizens’ right to bear arms is protected. I personally believe this right among others is non-negotiable. Some have suggested this is a political issue or a right and left issue. I strongly oppose that suggestion. This is a constitutional rights issue and we should all stand by this document which is the foundation of this nation.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
I'll repeat what I said earlier. Do you think guns actually helped this family? It seems to me if they hadn't had them, they would be alive today.

The Weavers? I don't know much about the specifics. I know that I would never advise anyone to become involved in a one-on-one violent showdown with the US government. When people talk about resisting tyranny, they mean collectively not individually. At least that's what I hope they mean.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

:lol: Collectivist!

You guys are wasting bits; mcgruff does not live in a fact-based reality.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bigun wrote:
I'm a proud man, my boss is among the Sheriff's opposing expanded gun control laws.


Good for you (good boss), and good for your county.

BoneKracker wrote:
mcgruff does not live in a fact-based reality.


I found his source material.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
mcgruff does not live in a fact-based reality.


I found his source material.


Brings a tear to his eye I'm sure.
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