Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
Sheriffs Nationwide begin rejecting Federal Gun control laws
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
McGruff
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How long are you guys going to try to keep this up?

The FBI spent months trying to get him to surrender peacefully. The shot that killed his wife shouldn't have been taken but still, if he had chosen to fight in court rather than have an armed standoff, no-one would have died. Weaver is responsible for escalating the confrontation and increasing the risk that someone was going to get killed.

Let's break that down:

(1) confrontation & no guns

--> shouting, arguing, wrestling and handcuffs then lawyers and a chance of justice in court

(2) confrontation with guns

--> deaths by shooting
--> shouting, arguing, wrestling and handcuffs then lawyers and a chance of justice in court

I prefer the one without the death.

In the end, Weaver was a poker player who couldn't cover his bet.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 656
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Government thugs slaughtered his wife and son because of trumped up charges and an authoritarian attitude.


mcgruff wrote:
In the end, Weaver was a poker player who couldn't cover his bet.


I'm completely stunned by your warped support for total authoritarianism.
_________________
http://howdovaccinescauseautism.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1565
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
But hey, I am still waiting for the example of armed citizens protecting their rights. In the USA.

This has been asked before and answered.

It happens every day. Armed people successfully defend themselves or their property from intruders, muggers, rapists, burglars, etc., etc. all the time.


beep - and now you are fleeing into semantics.

People in this forum argue with 'the state' as big evil and the deterrent of weapons and/or the possibility to defend their rights if the state tries to take them away.

And I want an example for that.

It's ongoing as we speak. The deterrent is present, and it's effective. That's why, for example, we have property rights and real freedom of thought, belief, and expression, and you don't.

energyman76b wrote:
'Defending your property' does not need guns. It doesn't even need weapons. And it certainly does not need automatic weapons.

Who ever said it needs automatic weapons? Where are you pulling that from (and you'd better wipe it off).
_________________
pjp wrote:
I didn't misquote you, I just misunderstood you.


Last edited by Bones McCracker on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1565
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
Government thugs slaughtered his wife and son because of trumped up charges and an authoritarian attitude.


mcgruff wrote:
In the end, Weaver was a poker player who couldn't cover his bet.


I'm completely stunned by your warped support for total authoritarianism.

He's a mindless authoritarian collectivist zombie; there's not much more to understand. He's been programmed full of rationalizations which cause him to not only accept, but to justify, his own oppression and helpless proletarian status. We see the same thing in battered wives all the time.
_________________
pjp wrote:
I didn't misquote you, I just misunderstood you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Old School
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 236
Location: The Covered Bridge Capital of Oregon

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
...but instead got his wife and son killed.


Wow. You are defending the state to this level? Even the slaying of Sammy & Vicki Weaver by federal thugs won't shake your faith.

He's a faithful little drone of the State.
_________________
I am not young enough to know everything.
- Oscar Wilde
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
McGruff
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And you guys sound like you get all your news from Stormfront.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Prenj
n00b
n00b


Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
If you are defending your property against an armed intruder, you don't need a weapon? What are you gonna do, bore him to death with German humor?


You cannot explain this to domesticated breed. In many EU countries law is such, that if an intruder comes into your house, and you apply violence (don't even need to kill him), the intruder can sue you for assault.

I'm really interested how should a girl reason with a rapist while he is raping her? They are not even allowed to carry pepper sprays. Isn't the fact that a person is in a state of mind where he is robbing/raping someone indicator that the debate is impossible?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Prenj
n00b
n00b


Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
And you guys sound like you get all your news from Stormfront.


Stormfront spins the actual events into racist/nationalistic narrative. (it's all teh ebil Jews fault)

We are simply discussing actual events without the spin.

Sounds more like you get all your news from media outlets owned, composed and censored by the establishment. Man how could you have access to the internet and miss out the fact that mainstream media is basically propaganda machine, and that the profession of journalist has moved from poking your nose where you shouldn't to publishing someone elses agenda?

How old are you? Did you even do anything not sanctioned by your parents when you were a teenager? You know, that vital component every generation engages in, with evolutionary quality of avoiding intellectual inbreeding?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1565
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Old School wrote:
You've been given an example. You just refuse to acknowledge it.


You gave us a guy who could have argued his case in court but instead got his wife and son killed. That doesn't show that guns are required to protect liberty; it shows how guns escalate violence and cause needless deaths.

If you knew anything about anything and didn't have your head deeply inserted in your authoritarian-collectivist rectal cavity, you'd have read that story and recognized it as a clear case of a government egregiously and systematically violating an individual's rights. The guns in that situation weren't the problem; the abusive, bureaucratic, government bullies were the problem. It reminds of Fraz Kafka's Der Prozess (not that you'd have ever read that).
_________________
pjp wrote:
I didn't misquote you, I just misunderstood you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
McGruff
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aren't you forgetting something? When Weaver was finally tried he was acquitted of all charges except violating his bail agreement and failing to turn up in court when he was supposed to. It appears that there was insufficient evidence for a conviction on the shotgun charges which kicked the whole thing off. So, Weaver could have gone to court, fought his case, and he'd have won without leaving a trail of blood behind.

Let's break that down again:

(1) attend trial, no guns

--> lawyers argue in court and Weaver wins

(2) armed standoff with guns

--> deaths by shooting
--> taken away in handcuffs
--> lawyers argue in court and Weaver wins

I still prefer the one without the death.

I've got no sympathy for someone who would put his family at risk in the way he did - or for people who misuse this tragic event to fuel their hatred of "gubmint". Any mistakes made by officials - and mistakes certainly were made - were individual errors of the people concerned not government policy. There was a peaceful way for Weaver to clear his name. He did not take it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1565
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can try to re-frame what happened any way you like -- that's what deluded people do -- but the fact (according to our government itself) remains that this was the government's fault, and the essence of what happened was that a government abused and violated the rights of a citizen. If your answer to being abused and having your rights violated is "spread your butt-cheeks so it won't hurt as much, and let the ass-fucking begin", then you're simply confirming what we all here know -- you're hopeless, helpless, farm animal, fully complicit in his own pathetic subjugation. Bellyfeel INGSOC, Brother!
_________________
pjp wrote:
I didn't misquote you, I just misunderstood you.


Last edited by Bones McCracker on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
McGruff
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you keep saying but the facts are well-known and easy to find out. He was accused of selling sawn-off shotguns so he had to go court.

Simples.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 656
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
And you guys sound like you get all your news from Stormfront.


So this is where you end up. :roll:
_________________
http://howdovaccinescauseautism.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1565
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
So you keep saying but the facts are well-known and easy to find out. He was accused of selling sawn-off shotguns so he had to go court.

Simples.

Wrong. That's your hand-pruned bonsai tree reality, but the important facts at the whole picture level are that our government itself acknowledged it was at fault, launched numerous investigations and corrective programs, disciplined the people who fucked up, publicly apologized, paid millions of dollars to the victim family, and passed new laws and regulations to keep itself from doing the same sort of thing in the future. No sane person other than a Totalitarian could read that story and conclude the fault does not lie overwhelmingly with the government.
_________________
pjp wrote:
I didn't misquote you, I just misunderstood you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1565
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
And you guys sound like you get all your news from Stormfront.


So this is where you end up. :roll:

This is the part where he keeps mindlessly flapping his lips in the delusion that if he just keeps talking, regardless of whether it makes any sense, people won't think he's a complete idiot. Then later he'll act like he won this argument. It takes a special kind of self-delusion to support that behavior. Here's another of his winning arguments from the past.
_________________
pjp wrote:
I didn't misquote you, I just misunderstood you.


Last edited by Bones McCracker on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wildhorse
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 148
Location: Estados Unidos De América

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about bombing Yugoslavia? Wouldn't that calm the urge to use weapons against your neighbours?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Prenj
n00b
n00b


Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Any mistakes made by officials - and mistakes certainly were made - were individual errors of the people concerned not government policy.


So that means that any shootings that occur in US are results of individual psychology, and in fact, gun ownership has nothing to do with it? Thanks, captain.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
McGruff
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
our government itself acknowledged it was at fault


There were some mistakes. That's not the point. You're avoiding the real issue: this isn't an example of guns being used to defend liberty against a tyrannical government - indeed, by your own admission, the government took steps to prevent similar errors being made again. That seems to be a system with a concern to protect citizens' rights from the individual failings of government officials.

The system also found Weaver not guilty of the firearms offence when he finally got to court. Is that how a police state normally works?

If you're accused of a firearms offence, you have to go to court. That's all there is to it. Weaver chose to resist by force of arms. Repeated attempts were made to persuade him to surrender but, finally, the marshalls had to come and bring Weaver in, and they had to come prepared for a gunfight. It was the correct course of action (although some stupid things were done in its execution).

No tyranny here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1565
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This is the part where he keeps mindlessly flapping his lips in the delusion that if he just keeps talking, regardless of whether it makes any sense, people won't think he's a complete idiot.

Just FYI: didn't bother to read.
_________________
pjp wrote:
I didn't misquote you, I just misunderstood you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
McGruff
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Typical BK: lose the argument and go off in a sulk. There there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1565
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This is the part where he keeps mindlessly flapping his lips in the delusion that if he just keeps talking, regardless of whether it makes any sense, people won't think he's a complete idiot. Then later he'll act like he won this argument. It takes a special kind of self-delusion to support that behavior.

So predictable: so pathetic.
_________________
pjp wrote:
I didn't misquote you, I just misunderstood you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
McGruff
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Real nice guy you're defending...

Quote:
On October 24, 1989, Weaver met with Fadeley, who was wearing a miniature tape recorder and an electronic transmitter. At that time, Weaver gave Fadeley two shotguns, one with a 13 inch barrel, the other with a 12-3/4 inch barrel. Weaver told Fadeley that he had cut the shotgun barrels himself, "[s]itting under a shade tree with a vise and a hacksaw," and added that, "when I get my workshop set up I can do a better job."[FN42] Fadeley paid Weaver $300.00 for the weapons. When Weaver requested an additional $150.00 for the weapons, Fadeley told him that he would give him the additional money at the next purchase.[FN43] Fadeley then proceeded to tell Weaver that "[t]here is money to be had, and it looks like [you] did a real nice job". He then asked Weaver, "You figured four or five a week?" to which Weaver replied, "yeah, or more." Weaver repeated that there would be no paper trail on the weapons.[FN44]

Fadeley met Weaver again on November 30, 1989 with the intent of arranging a trip to Montana to meet Holworth. At this time, Weaver announced that he had five additional sawed-off shotguns available for purchase. When Fadeley told him that he had not brought enough money to pay for them, Weaver responded, "just figure on more cash next time." Thereafter, Weaver asked Fadeley if he had "a cover, legit business." In addition, Weaver told Fadeley that he was not able to go to Montana that day, but said that "the next time that I tell you I'll go with ya . . . I'll make sure I'll go with you." Fadeley paid Weaver $100 toward the balance of the previous purchase of two sawed-off shotguns.[FN45] Following this meeting, Byerly instructed Fadeley to have no additional contact with Weaver.[FN46]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16112
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll give you one thing, you at least stay on point. The one point.
_________________
lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.

In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1565
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weak and failed argument is weak and failed.

He is cherry-picking, from a document which begins:
Quote:
The events that led to the death of three persons at Ruby Ridge, Idaho in August 1992 and to the subsequent prosecution of Randall ("Randy") Weaver and Kevin Harris had their origin with an investigation by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms ("BATF"). Serious allegations have been made about the role of BATF in the Weaver matter. Included among these allegations are that a BATF informant entrapped Weaver into selling illegal weapons; that a BATF reward system created the incentive for the informant to entrap Weaver; and that BATF and the informant tired to conceal this future compensation arrangement from the defense, the court and the U.S. Attorney's Office.[FN3] It has also been alleged that BATF exaggerated to the U.S. Marshals Service, the U.S. Attorney 's Office, and the court the extent of Weaver's involvement with the Aryan Nations and the Order and that federal law enforcement unconstitutionally targeted Randy Weaver for prosecution because of his religious views.

Moreover, it's nothing but the Government investigating the Government (i.e. the fox watching the hen-house), after they got their asses in hot water and various parties desperately needed to make excuses and deny responsibility. It's an investigation of the FBI by the Department of Justice, which is ridiculous, since the FBI works for and is part of the DoJ, and the political appointee in charge of DoJ (the Attorney General) is the individual who's ass was on the line over the whole affair.

This is nothing but a denial of responsibility by the people responsible. Oh, and by the way, the very next year that same Attorney General presided over the similar massacre at Waco, Texas. She (Janet Reno -- yes, that's actually a representative photo; she actually looked like that) never did lose her job as a result, although she was later impeached for Contempt of Congress.

Now that's a Democrat Department of Justice in action (under Clinton), and we've seen Obama's. Imagine the shit that would hit the fan if such things happened under a Republican? A million Democrats would have spontaneous abortions! Is there any doubt who the real Authoritarians are? At least the Republicans point their evil at the people of other countries! :o

Really, I hate to do it again, but it's time for
Code:
mcgruff &>/dev/null

_________________
pjp wrote:
I didn't misquote you, I just misunderstood you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
McGruff
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your quote simply reported some allegations. What were the conclusions? For example:

Quote:
We have found no evidence to support the claim that BATF targeted Weaver because of his religious or political beliefs. Similarly, we found insufficient evidence to sustain the charge that Weaver was illegally entrapped into selling the weapons.


Maybe you can help me because I'm confused: which of us is cherry-picking..?

Despite your determined assertions, the fact is that one branch of government did investigate another and this led to a number of recommendations which helped to save bloodshed in a similar showdown with the Freemen. Is this how tyrannical governments normally behave?

PS: I'll see your Janet Reno and raise you one Ronald Reagan. Yes - he really did look like that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 3 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum