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erm67
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:22 am    Post subject: Cameron referendum speech: EU reaction Reply with quote

What had you expected?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21159365


France wrote:
The other day I was at a meeting with lots of British people, in particular businessmen, and I told them cleverly that if the UK decides to leave Europe we will roll out the red carpet.


Germany wrote:
The belief the EU could engage in new negotiations, and Germany could support this, borders on a belief in miracles

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was the speech about rearranging Earth tectonics 8O
France wrote:
It could be dangerous for the UK itself because the UK outside Europe? Difficult.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahenobarbi wrote:
Was the speech about rearranging Earth tectonics 8O
France wrote:
It could be dangerous for the UK itself because the UK outside Europe? Difficult.

Possibly. But there are people (at least one who haunts this very forum) who have a problem with admitting the the UK is a part of Europe. Because it is. It is not landlocked, but nevertheless it is a part of Europe. So for them, it would just be a confirmation of their strange beliefs to leave Europe and become a small independent continent. Like Australia, but with no natural resources, a crappy economy and reliance on Europeans to move any cross channel goods :P
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
Ahenobarbi wrote:
Was the speech about rearranging Earth tectonics 8O
France wrote:
It could be dangerous for the UK itself because the UK outside Europe? Difficult.

Possibly. But there are people (at least one who haunts this very forum) who have a problem with admitting the the UK is a part of Europe. Because it is. It is not landlocked, but nevertheless it is a part of Europe. So for them, it would just be a confirmation of their strange beliefs to leave Europe and become a small independent continent. Like Australia, but with no natural resources, a crappy economy and reliance on Europeans to move any cross channel goods :P
eu != europe
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
eu != europe

Yes, I do know that. What's your point?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
Naib wrote:
eu != europe

Yes, I do know that. What's your point?
Because this isn't the 1st time I have heard something like that, nor the thousandth ... while I don't like getting into politics when I am on the mainland (be it germany,france or spain) it does pop up occasionally...

In Britain Europe (geographic) and Europe (political) are used interchangeably. You might think that is incorrect, like my colleagues, but suck it, its our language.
Every school kid knows that the UK is part of Europe, I'm not aware of any 5year old that can't point to the UK on a map nor know what continent that is.

Some in the UK want the UK out of (political Europe), some want to be further integrated, most however want Europe to stop butting in to the level that they do...
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
In Britain Europe (geographic) and Europe (political) are used interchangeably. You might think that is incorrect, like my colleagues, but suck it, its our language.

What am I sucking? I agree with your definition of Europe.
Naib wrote:
Every school kid knows that the UK is part of Europe, I'm not aware of any 5year old that can't point to the UK on a map nor know what continent that is.

Yep, still agree.
Naib wrote:
eu != europe

Yep agree.

So, since I agree with every statement, I think you might have missed the fact that you are basically arguing with yourself.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
Naib wrote:
In Britain Europe (geographic) and Europe (political) are used interchangeably. You might think that is incorrect, like my colleagues, but suck it, its our language.

What am I sucking? I agree with your definition of Europe.
Naib wrote:
Every school kid knows that the UK is part of Europe, I'm not aware of any 5year old that can't point to the UK on a map nor know what continent that is.

Yep, still agree.
Naib wrote:
eu != europe

Yep agree.

So, since I agree with every statement, I think you might have missed the fact that you are basically arguing with yourself.


not really since:
Quote:

who have a problem with admitting the the UK is a part of Europe.

That isn't the case
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:

Some in the UK want the UK out of (political Europe), some want to be further integrated, most however want Europe to stop butting in to the level that they do...


I believe the UK (and others) will have a chance soon, but what do you think about the reactions in the EU? Do you think the UK is being treated unfairly by their comments?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
not really since:
Quote:

who have a problem with admitting the the UK is a part of Europe.

That isn't the case

Yes. I don't have that problem. Moving on...
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just leave already. UK is like girlfriend that complains a lot.

It's cool, leave, good luck. Make it interesting. EU is getting retarded allready, everything looks the same. We need diversity, that we can travel to, without having to spend 9+ hours on a plane.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
I believe the UK (and others) will have a chance soon, but what do you think about the reactions in the EU? Do you think the UK is being treated unfairly by their comments?

They're about what I would expect, borderline EU jingoism.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
Naib wrote:

Some in the UK want the UK out of (political Europe), some want to be further integrated, most however want Europe to stop butting in to the level that they do...


I believe the UK (and others) will have a chance soon, but what do you think about the reactions in the EU? Do you think the UK is being treated unfairly by their comments?
when you can't chuck someone out of the country who has been deemed a threat, yes questions have to be asked.

Aside from the over-stretching arms of the European Human Rights court, generally the EU is good (and not just trade).
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Euro is really driving the countries in Europe apart. AFAIK do UK and Germany a lot of business together without using the same currency.
It is a shame if the people living in Europe have now to suffer the consequences, I would probably have to leave the country and work somewhere else then?!?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't understand why this panic about EU? I mean due to geographical proximity, european nations will still have agreements and trade with each other. Why do you need to impose some superstructure on top of it? Who benefits?
If Germany and UK want to have trade with each other, they can sign trade agreements that benefits both parties.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Tory party are insane. Genuinely insane. It's really sad that these little Englanders represent the UK. Not everyone based in Britain is anti-EU. I'm half-Scottish and I love the fact that I'm also European with a link to so many other countries and their people.

Are there problems in the EU? Sure, but you stay and fix them. Leaving would be utterly insane.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

disi wrote:
The Euro is really driving the countries in Europe apart. AFAIK do UK and Germany a lot of business together without using the same currency.

The problem is only that the UK has to say (veto) about the Euro while Germany can't say anything about the monetary policy of the UK. It can't stay this way forever, it is indispensable for the future of all the countries using the euro that countries not using it are cut out of any monetary decisions about the common currency.
disi wrote:

It is a shame if the people living in Europe have now to suffer the consequences, I would probably have to leave the country and work somewhere else then?!?

Well the UKip will be happy to kick out all those EU invaders ...
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
disi wrote:
The Euro is really driving the countries in Europe apart. AFAIK do UK and Germany a lot of business together without using the same currency.

The problem is only that the UK has to say (veto) about the Euro while Germany can't say anything about the monetary policy of England. It can't stay this way forever, it is indispensable for the future of all the countries using the euro that countries not using it are cut out of any monetary decisions about the common currency.
disi wrote:

It is a shame if the people living in Europe have now to suffer the consequences, I would probably have to leave the country and work somewhere else then?!?

Well the UKip will be happy to kick out all those EU invaders ...

Thats because the entire Euro experiment was cobbled together alongside & dependent on existing treaties, such treaties which defined the EEC.
Besides whether the UK should join the Euro or not (personally I don't think we should, at the moment) the entire, speedy method at which it was deployed has been something I never liked.

A Coal&Steel union made sense, perfect way to pretty much rule out another major war in europe (for those part of it)
The EEC made sense, a open trade boarders bloc
What goes hand in hand with this is a single currency.
What however doesn't is further legal integration NOTE harmonising legal issues across European countries also makes sense (to a certain degree) but there was ZERO reason to entangle it into the entire single currency... this is what has caused the situation where the UK has a veto surround certain key aspects of the single currency... It should have been treated as a separate entity such fiscal integration of those countries was fully possible... Don't blame the players for using a broken system.

What I never understood was why rush head on like the EU did with full deployment and a virtual open-door policy for those in the EU who wanted to use it (spain, italy, greece all had their currency conversion in the thousand... pointing to some uncontrolled inflation in those countries past...). Full deployment, full fiscal regulation (which france and germany break) with a lot of the countries not at the same economic level.

Create The Euro, maybe with France&Germany fully converting. Use it as an inter-country exchange unit (its all electronic so it is a moot point). Those countries wanting to adopt the Euro were to pegg their exchange to that of the Euro, loosely follow the fiscal rules. After x number of years how well they have (voluntarily) stuck to said rules would determine whether they were accepted into the Euro club.
As it stands the Euro let in every fiscally liable country it could without any real firm background check. There wasn't even a wait until the next recession.... Recessions are quite cyclic and while this one can be "blamed" on the US and UK banking for creating a global recession, something else would have caused an eu recession or a specific country to go into recession.

Not waiting to see how the bloc would tolerate the next recession was very short sighted.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Calling EU Europe annoys me more than calling USA America (I know there is less USA in Americas than EU in Europe, but I had more time to get used to it).

erm67 wrote:
... what do you think about the reactions in the EU? Do you think the UK is being treated unfairly by their comments?


People recognizable as important say they don't want UK to leave, anonymous or virtually unknown say "we don't want you in our sandbox anyway".

mcgruff wrote:
The Tory party are insane. Genuinely insane. It's really sad that these little Englanders represent the UK. Not everyone based in Britain is anti-EU. I'm half-Scottish and I love the fact that I'm also European with a link to so many other countries and their people.

Are there problems in the EU? Sure, but you stay and fix them. Leaving would be utterly insane.


Mind explaining why "leaving would be utterly insane" ?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahenobarbi wrote:

People recognizable as important say they don't want UK to leave, anonymous or virtually unknown say "we don't want you in our sandbox anyway".


Are you sure this will be compatible with having the UK inside?

Who are those "People recognizable as important" from countries that uses the euro? You won't find any.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahenobarbi wrote:


Mind explaining why "leaving would be utterly insane" ?

Because both the EU and the UK will be hurt economically by this, more than likely the UK alot more.
The EU is the UK's largest trading partner (and right now Germany is the biggest in imports and exports). The UK could arrange to leave the EU (a retardly stupid decision, I will take up the job offer in america if that occurs) and be part of the trade bloc only HOWEVER, the UK would not be in a position to influence decisions surrounding the trading bloc.

I don't have specifics, but the UK was the one that has consistently pushed (more often than not on their own or with Finland) for a more open market. Without the UK there to force an open market the EU could turn in on itself (more so) damaging EU trade with the world.

The US would loose virtually all influence within EU and thus the UK will loose some of its importance to the USA (it might not be much but it's a damn sight more than most, maybe only Israel has closer ties). Likewise the EU will loose any real influence in the USA - common language, common history goes along way in an international friendship.

simply put it would be retarded. However, if it fucked over Scotland with regards to a vocal minority pushing for independence and their requirement to actually fully apply (rather than being admittance by proxy) I am all for leaving the EU now
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:

Thats because the entire Euro experiment was cobbled together alongside & dependent on existing treaties, such treaties which defined the EEC.
Besides whether the UK should join the Euro or not (personally I don't think we should, at the moment) the entire, speedy method at which it was deployed has been something I never liked.

The problem is not joining or not the euro, the current problem is that in order to keep the euro working some steps are to be undertaken, and this is not possible in a EU where multiple currencies coexist. Will the UK keep the pound and join a banking union? Will the UK keep using the pound and join a fiscal union?
There is a lot more under discussion now beside the euro.

Naib wrote:

A Coal&Steel union made sense, perfect way to pretty much rule out another major war in europe (for those part of it)
The EEC made sense, a open trade boarders bloc
What goes hand in hand with this is a single currency.
What however doesn't is further legal integration NOTE harmonising legal issues across European countries also makes sense (to a certain degree) but there was ZERO reason to entangle it into the entire single currency... this is what has caused the situation where the UK has a veto surround certain key aspects of the single currency... It should have been treated as a separate entity such fiscal integration of those countries was fully possible... Don't blame the players for using a broken system.


The system can be fixed, a likely scenario is that the eurozone leaves the EU ....
Naib wrote:

What I never understood was why rush head on like the EU did with full deployment and a virtual open-door policy for those in the EU who wanted to use it (spain, italy, greece all had their currency conversion in the thousand... pointing to some uncontrolled inflation in those countries past...). Full deployment, full fiscal regulation (which france and germany break) with a lot of the countries not at the same economic level.

Having lived in various places in the eurozone before and after, I did not felt all this unbalanced inflation ...


Naib wrote:

Create The Euro, maybe with France&Germany fully converting. Use it as an inter-country exchange unit (its all electronic so it is a moot point). Those countries wanting to adopt the Euro were to pegg their exchange to that of the Euro, loosely follow the fiscal rules. After x number of years how well they have (voluntarily) stuck to said rules would determine whether they were accepted into the Euro club.


Why should all other countries using the euro be excluded? the problem is only with non euro countries :-) Internal eurozone problem should be tackled by eurozone members, undertaking all action necessary in moments of crisis.
Naib wrote:

As it stands the Euro let in every fiscally liable country it could without any real firm background check. There wasn't even a wait until the next recession.... Recessions are quite cyclic and while this one can be "blamed" on the US and UK banking for creating a global recession, something else would have caused an eu recession or a specific country to go into recession.

Not waiting to see how the bloc would tolerate the next recession was very short sighted.


Well the problems in the eurozone are connected with the so called 'spread' at the moment, and that doesn't depend on the countries itself. Without further strenghtening the union it has no way to survive.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope we get rid of the UK.

Two reasons: they bring nothing to the table but diseased meat the rest is forced to import.

they cost a lot more than they pay.

The UK are just another one of EU's beggar states. The earlier we can make them leave this blockading water sacks, the better.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
they cost a lot more than they pay.

The UK are just another one of EU's beggar states. The earlier we can make them leave this blockading water sacks, the better.

Umm, no, the UK is a net contributor of €3.9B in the EU budget.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We'll never be offered a say-so, not while there are influential people making
money from various EU related positions.

We need to leave, ideally before two new member states come online - hello open door policy.
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