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Dr.Willy
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
Civil disobedience pretty much requires one to suffer the consequences of the unjust law.

Why? What does suffering the consequences add to the statement made by civil disobedience?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
Muso wrote:
Civil disobedience pretty much requires one to suffer the consequences of the unjust law.

Why? What does suffering the consequences add to the statement made by civil disobedience?


Because at that point you're just being a criminal as opposed to a civil rights activist. The point is to show how unjust a law is. If one breaks it in secret and tries to avoid all consequences, one really isn't engaging in civil disobedience. Again, look to MLK Jr & Gandhi.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
richk449 wrote:
It is clearly possible to torment someone to the point that death becomes preferable. But where is the evidence that it happened here? Aaron committed a crime, and as a smart guy, he must have been aware that prosecution was a possibility. The prosecutor prosecuted him to the full extent of the law. What did he do that qualifies as "sadistic" or "vicious"?

Well there was that time he threatened Swartz with $1 million in fines and 35 years in prison for downloading too many journal articles.

:lol:

Axe murderers and Colombian drug lords do 30 years. And now that the Obama Administration has made some hopey change, so do bittorrent users.
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richk449
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
richk449 wrote:
It is clearly possible to torment someone to the point that death becomes preferable. But where is the evidence that it happened here? Aaron committed a crime, and as a smart guy, he must have been aware that prosecution was a possibility. The prosecutor prosecuted him to the full extent of the law. What did he do that qualifies as "sadistic" or "vicious"?

Well there was that time he threatened Swartz with $1 million in fines and 35 years in prison for downloading too many journal articles.

So what should the prosecutor have done in your view?
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever was last done to Lindsey Lohan.

Seriously? I'd give him six months in jail suspended to one week (long enough to get a taste of it), a $10,000 fine and 16 hours a week of community service for the next three months. If he does something similar again, the suspended sentence goes into effect, on top of whatever else he has earned.

[Edit: that's without going into any issue of whether the law is a good one or not, just the issue of sane enforcement versus malicious, terroristic prosecution.]
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Last edited by Bones McCracker on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:07 pm; edited 2 times in total
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SiberianSniper
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This reminds me of http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=suicide_blame
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
People who use suicide to manipulate others into feeling shame or guilt are the ultimate cowards.

Not any more they're not. :lol:
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
So what should the prosecutor have done in your view?

My personal view? They should have moved on to the next case and prosecuted somebody who had done something worth prosecuting.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SiberianSniper wrote:
This reminds me of http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=suicide_blame


Nice!
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
richk449 wrote:
So what should the prosecutor have done in your view?

My personal view? They should have moved on to the next case and prosecuted somebody who had done something worth prosecuting.

This takes us off topic, but in that case, why bother to have laws? If the prosecutor should just do whatever he wants, regardless of what the law says, isn't that some sort of oligarchy or dictatorship?

If you really do want to blame someone for Aaron's death, why blame the prosecutor, instead of the legislature that created the laws the prosecutor was enforcing? Or blame the society that supported those laws? Blaming the prosecutor doesn't make much more sense than blaming the policeman who arrested him, or the bailiff that delivered his papers to the court.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blame the naive Democrats who elected corrupt-ass Obama, who whored out to the entertainment, software, pharmaceutical, biotechnology, and financial industries (among others), and is stunning his liberal-minded supporters by persecuting file downloaders and software pirates with unbelievably brutal prosecution and penalties so severe they should only appropriate to corporate litigation, not individual crimes of little consequence.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Blame the naive Democrats who elected corrupt-ass Obama, who whored out to the entertainment, software, pharmaceutical, biotechnology, and financial industries (among others), and is stunning his liberal-minded supporters by persecuting file downloaders and software pirates with unbelievably brutal prosecution and penalties so severe they should only appropriate to corporate litigation, not individual crimes of little consequence.

In the spirit of assuming the most positive motive, I presume this is part of your long-running attempt to mirror the stupidity of liberals during the Bush administration? Because you are much too smart for this waste of e-ink otherwise.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To what extent would you agree or disagree with this statement:

The U.S. Federal Government's prosecution of electronic violators of copyright and intellectual capital suddenly increased in intensity following the election of Barack Obama, in terms of the number of cases brought, but most notably in terms of the severity of penalties sought (with unprecedented penalties at individual level being sought, ranging into decades of prison time and millions of dollars in fines).

a) entirely true

b) mostly true

c) somewhat more true than false

d) somewhat more false than true

e) mostly false

f) entirely false

I'll give you a hint: the answer is (a). Also note that none of the choices have a "..., but blah blah blah ....." clause.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
the answer is (a)

evidence?
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
the answer is (a)

evidence?

Aw geez! You're supposed to answer the question, THEN look at the hint.

Now you've gone and biased your answer.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
This takes us off topic, but in that case, why bother to have laws? If the prosecutor should just do whatever he wants, regardless of what the law says, isn't that some sort of oligarchy or dictatorship?

Why bother indeed. In any event, aren't you overlooking the infinite discretion prosecutors already enjoy? They already make up the rules as it suits them, for example offering plea bargains or immunity in exchange for information. At least that's what they do on TV.

Quote:
If you really do want to blame someone for Aaron's death, why blame the prosecutor, instead of the legislature that created the laws the prosecutor was enforcing? Or blame the society that supported those laws? Blaming the prosecutor doesn't make much more sense than blaming the policeman who arrested him, or the bailiff that delivered his papers to the court.

I also blame the legislature. Plenty of blame to go around. However, blaming the prosecutor makes much more sense than blaming the policeman and the bailiff because the prosecutor is the person in charge of prosecuting.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

More to the point, the prosecution chooses what penalties shall be sought, and then convinces the court they are in keeping with a rational interpretation of the letter and intent of the law.

What seems unfair about it to me is that this is a common behavior, but instead of broad-based punishment of a comparatively mild degree sufficient to deter repetition of the behavior, they are choosing what I call a terroristic approach, in singling out a few people and essentially destroying their lives. It doesn't seem right somehow; it seems malicious and oppressive.

But, maybe richk449 has a point as well. Maybe the law needs to be re-written. Maybe every file or site is not a new count of the offense. We don't write cable theft laws to count each show watched as a new count of theft of services or even each day.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no question that the law needs to be written. Probably any law with a so-called mandatory minimum sentence needs to be rewritten.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The law has to act in a proportional and balanced way and it seems a bit unbalanced in this case. Unfortunately a lot of facts come together in this case - the depressions of Aaron and not being aware of the fact that civil disobedience has consequences and perhaps the prosecutor overreacting and a lot of things happening at once and at the wrong time. That builds up a lot of pressure.

If a case isn't handled balanced and proportional compared to other cases like theft, murder or any other kind of criminal act and people taking part in the case are trying to squeeze out anything that goes out of the case then the whole thing gets out of proportion.

So in the end he didn't rape or murder anyone nor did he cause physical harm to anyone. It has to be verified how much financial damage he may have caused of course and then the court may have tried to come to a balanced view of the whole case.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He didn't cause any financial harm. All he did was download with wget instead point-and-click individual links. He violated TOS and the fedsmade it a felony hacking case.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://journal.davidbyrne.com/2013/02/020513-civil-disobedience.html

Quote:
But back to civil disobedience. Swartz stole the material, pure and simple, and he seems to feel that he and others have, in this case, the right to steal because they are beholden to a higher moral standard. I am sort of fine with this if he’s willing to accept the consequences, as Ellsberg and the Civil Rights activists were. I sort of feel the same way about Wikileaks—though much of the data they make available wasn’t “stolen” by them, they do know that under many nation’s laws disseminating that data is illegal. (Significantly, the NY Times and Washington Post were not prosecuted for printing the Pentagon Papers—though Nixon tried to do so—and these same papers were not thrown in jail for printing Wikileaks excerpts.) And as much as I’m glad they made the horrors of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq obvious, Assange might face jail under U.S. law—though I’m happy that more corporate and military misbehaviors are made public.

If Ellsberg and the Civil Rights activists were willing to go to jail, should Assange and Swartz and (Oh jeez, am I writing this?) poor Bradley Manning be willing go to jail too?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is going to jail part of civil disobedience? It depends on your flavor of civil disobedience. I don't think I'd willingly go to jail unless I thought it would inspire other people to act, and maybe to get my ass out.

Wikileaks :roll:
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Is going to jail part of civil disobedience? It depends on your flavor of civil disobedience. I don't think I'd willingly go to jail unless I thought it would inspire other people to act, and maybe to get my ass out.
Depends. The independently wealthy (celebrities, etc.) have more freedom since their criminal record doesn't prevent them from getting a job. Journalists also have some freedom there. The rest of us, not so much.
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