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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Muso wrote:
USA - 466 violent crimes per 100,000 people.
UK - 2,034 violent crimes per 100,000 people.


are the definitions of violent crime the same? seems like it's important to find out, otherwise those numbers are pretty meaningless.

For this reason, those stats are hard to compare without that verification. The only really reliable statistic for comparison is homicide, as the definition is the same in both cases.

we of course don't need to look those up for comparison, do we? In fact, the US homicide rate is approximately the same factor bigger than the UK's rate as healthcare spending. I conjecture a link.

Sounds like a lot of quibbling and tap-dancing. :roll:

Look at that disparity. No "differences in definition" could account for all that. The truth is you're becoming a bunch of drunken hooligan asshats, violently acting out against society because everybody feels helpless and emasculated, having been disarmed, silenced, and made dependent upon the state for their welfare. Meanwhile, half have bought into the propaganda and go around trying to rationalize their situation, to minimize cognitive dissonance: "Soon they'll have virtually eradicated the orgasm. Double-plus-good, Brother."
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
the US homicide rate is approximately the same factor bigger than the UK's rate as healthcare spending. I conjecture a link.
I agree that the definition is relevant, but seems unlikely to reduce the difference by the disparity. How is it possible for violent crime to be related to health care spending?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:

Sounds like a lot of quibbling and tap-dancing. :roll:

Look at that disparity. No "differences in definition" could account for all that. The truth is you're becoming a bunch of drunken hooligan asshats, violently acting out against society because everybody feels helpless and emasculated, having been disarmed, silenced, and made dependent upon the state for their welfare. Meanwhile, half have bought into the propaganda and go around trying to rationalize their situation, to minimize cognitive dissonance: "Soon they'll have virtually eradicated the orgasm. Double-plus-good, Brother."


Do you live here? Have you even been here?

I shouldn't even dignify your "look at the disparity" with a response, but I will anyway. It absolutely can make such a difference. Little things like how crime is tabulated (how many crimes does a particular incident count as) to what counts as a violent crime (is a threat a violent crime) can make a huge difference. In fact, tabulating changes can even make a difference within a jurisdiction (as happened in Britain about 10 years ago) These are different jurisdictions so there almost certainly is a difference in definition and tabulation, the question is how does it affect the rate. Applying a consistent rate may widen the gap or narrow it. I don't know the difference, but I am open to be educated about it.

However, neither do you. So just comparing two numbers without having any idea as to what they mean is a little silly.


Last edited by juniper on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
juniper wrote:
the US homicide rate is approximately the same factor bigger than the UK's rate as healthcare spending. I conjecture a link.
I agree that the definition is relevant, but seems unlikely to reduce the difference by the disparity. How is it possible for violent crime to be related to health care spending?


I was just taking a dig at US healtcare spending and making a joke. ignore.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, OK.

As a self-defense mechanism, I'm "looking forward" to seeing how much our health care costs increase. *sigh*
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:

Sounds like a lot of quibbling and tap-dancing. :roll:

Look at that disparity. No "differences in definition" could account for all that. The truth is you're becoming a bunch of drunken hooligan asshats, violently acting out against society because everybody feels helpless and emasculated, having been disarmed, silenced, and made dependent upon the state for their welfare. Meanwhile, half have bought into the propaganda and go around trying to rationalize their situation, to minimize cognitive dissonance: "Soon they'll have virtually eradicated the orgasm. Double-plus-good, Brother."


Do you live here? Have you even been here?

I shouldn't even dignify your "look at the disparity" with a response, but I will anyway. It absolutely can make such a difference. Little things like how crime is tabulated (how many crimes does a particular incident count as) to what counts as a violent crime (is a threat a violent crime) can make a huge difference. In fact, tabulating changes can even make a difference within a jurisdiction (as happened in Britain about 10 years ago) These are different jurisdictions so there almost certainly is a difference in definition and tabulation, the question is how does it affect the rate. Applying a consistent rate may widen the gap or narrow it. I don't know the difference, but I am open to be educated about it.

However, neither do you. So just comparing two numbers without having any idea as to what they mean is a little silly.

Sounds like bullshit to me.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Sounds like bullshit to me.

Not to me. juniper is right. If you want to compare two measurements, then you need to be sure they measure the same thing.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Muso wrote:
USA - 466 violent crimes per 100,000 people.
UK - 2,034 violent crimes per 100,000 people.


are the definitions of violent crime the same? seems like it's important to find out, otherwise those numbers are pretty meaningless.


The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.

Quote:
Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed. Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries. The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour.

The Tories said Labour had presided over a decade of spiralling violence. In the decade following the party's election in 1997, the number of recorded violent attacks soared by 77 per cent to 1.158million - or more than two every minute.

The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations, also show:
The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.
It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.
The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.
It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France.

But it is the naming of Britain as the most violent country in the EU that is most shocking. The analysis is based on the number of crimes per 100,000 residents.
In the UK, there are 2,034 offences per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677.

The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609.

Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: 'This is a damning indictment of this government's comprehensive failure over more than a decade to tackle the deep rooted social problems in our society, and the knock on effect on crime and anti-social behaviour.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Sounds like bullshit to me.

Not to me. juniper is right. If you want to compare two measurements, then you need to be sure they measure the same thing.

Still sounds like bullshit to me. Also, I'll bet he's never even been to the East End (or if he has, it was in a Taxi or bus he never got out of).
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Britain doesn't really have a misdemeanour assault charge so I wonder if they count all assaults in the statistics, whereas the US do not count misdemeanours in theirs and only felony assaults.. In fact my UK English dictionary spell check had problems correcting the word "misdemeanour".
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
Britain doesn't really have a misdemeanour assault charge so I wonder if they count all assaults in the statistics, whereas the US do not count misdemeanours in theirs and only felony assaults.. In fact my UK English dictionary spell check had problems correcting the word "misdemeanour".

Quibbling. The way the courts handle these things, it still approximates apples to apples. We don't let truly violent acts off with a misdemeanor, and, similarly, British courts don't convict somebody of a felony for throwing a snowball, shoving, or spitting. There is no way such "measurement" differences account for that disparity. Neither country is counting people who got in a bar fight or shoved somebody during an argument.

The real differences are:

a) the average UK citizen is more likely to get attacked by some violent hooligan or yob than the average American is to get attacked by some Blood, Crip, or drug addict.

b) getting attacked in the U.S. is more likely to mean getting shot, while in the UK it's more likely to mean getting stabbed, having a broken bottle shoved in your face, or having your head bashed on the sidewalk.

The U.S. has more of a culture of ethnic gang and drug violence, born out of racial segregation and poverty, diseases of the capitalist-corporatist state. The UK (England and Ireland in particular) have a culture of violent hooliganism and nihilistic, iconoclastic yobbism, born out of learned helplessness, a disease of the socialist-welfare state. Since our violence tends to me more lethal, we suppress it more. Hence, fewer violent crimes, yet more homicides. Population density is also a factor.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
Quote:

....
The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations...


I'll bet my balls that doesn't mean the stats were collected by or tabulated by a central commission. The EU would never spend a lot of money on something that useful. :lol:
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
dmitchell wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Sounds like bullshit to me.

Not to me. juniper is right. If you want to compare two measurements, then you need to be sure they measure the same thing.

Still sounds like bullshit to me. Also, I'll bet he's never even been to the East End (or if he has, it was in a Taxi or bus he never got out of).


If that sounds like bullshit to you, then there isn't much I can say. I would have thought it rather obvious that you should be sure to stats measure the same thing, but I guess not. In fact, you see this within jurisdictions (famously in britain 10 or so years ago) that when crime definitions and tabulation methods change there is a sharp drop/rise in crime rates. But hey, this is as obvious to me as night follows day. Any docs doing comparisons worth their salt will mention this issue (most do).

you are right that degrees of apples are being compared (we aren't going to be comparing public nose picking (what constitutes a single pick?) in one instance to attempted murder in the other), but those degrees are precisely what we are talking about.

As for going to the east end, I went just before christmas (for shopping). we (wife and two young daughters) go there every once in a while for groceries and random other shopping. Lots to eat, albeit not indian (bangladeshi, not the same). It's actually quite a lively area. I have in fact been many times. The first time was a little scary as I had just arrived in England for the first time (well before I moved here or planned on moving here, just a random trip) with no money and found myself in Hackney at 2am, but of course nothing came of it. that was a bit scary (me, a friend and random men the only people about), but as i said nothing happened. I have even been to *gasp* Brixton and other "unsavoury" parts of south london as well (many more times actually).
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