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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:35 am    Post subject: Shot a Springfield 1911 Today Reply with quote

What an incredible pistol. 8O

From what I read, people like the Smith and Wesson M&P .45 even more. I think that's what I'll buy.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 1911 is a Korean War Vet.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice.


Split off [wildhorse] How about shooting babies?.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have one too, absolutely love it. It's IAC, not exactly the most American pistol, but I am a great fan. It's between that and the Sprinffield Armory XD .45 for my favorite pistol of all time.

*edit* Okay, maybe not my favorite of all time, but at least I can conceal my IAC.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The M1911 (originally designed by Browning) was the standard officer's sidearm during my first few years in the Army, and was the standard sidearm of many other forces as well. I recall always carrying a Colt M1911, so they must have procured them from various manufacturers over time.

It was a nice, rugged automatic which packed a punch and was well-suited to military use. Unlike civilian 1911 models, it was extremely reliable, when using military ammunition. New, or having been recently bench-tuned, they are as accurate as any modern pistol firing the same ammunition. Unlike a lot of modern pistols (e.g., Glock), it CAN be bench-tuned, which is critical for a weapon that's going to get a lot of actual use, because lots of wear will change the weapon's aim point over time.

It feels good in the hand, although I'd say it's excessively front-heavy (as most automatics are). Also unlike most modern automatics, it has a straight-feed magazine (one round stacked directly atop the next, as opposed to staggered). This reduces the number of rounds you can put in a single clip, but it gives it a nice, narrow grip which you learn to appreciate if you are carrying one all the time, especially if you're wearing a shoulder holster. This also makes it a much better concealed carry than similar large-caliber automatics with staggered magazines (e.g., most 9mm).

The U.S. Army replaced them with the Beretta M9, which fires a 9mm parabellum. I found it to be a superior sidearm in general. It has a fat grip which doesn't feel as good in the hand and makes it a pain in a shoulder holster, clumsy in confined spaces, and unsuitable for concealed carry, but it's magazine holds more rounds, the action is smoother, and I found the round to be more accurate at range (although the smaller projectile it packs less punch, I think). This may have partly been due to the fact that I traded in what was probably an un-tuned, 20-year-old M1911 for a brand-new M9.

In general, I'd take a good 9mm, such as the Beretta M9, over a civilian model 1911. However, if I were picking an automatic for concealed carry or use in confined spaces, (Edit: or to pistol-whip someone with), I might opt for a MILSPEC M1911.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.45 ACP has much more stopping power than the 9mm.

Hell, you hit someone with that slower moving .45 and it will do serious knockdown damage.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I bought my own pistol, I chose a .40 S&W for that very reason. It has somewhat more kinetic energy than a .45 ACP, with ballistics very similar to the 9mm or .357 Mag. The .357 Mag (or .357 Sig) has still more stopping power, but I think it goes slightly beyond what I need, and the ammunition is more expensive (which matters if you're actually going to practice a lot with your handgun, which is a must).

If I thought I'd be routinely shooting people through walls, I'd probably opt for the slightly more powerful .357 Sig, which is as powerful as the .357 Magnum but still nice and compact.

I also selected a pistol (Sig P229) that can be easily changed from .40 S&W to either .357 Sig or 9mm, simply by swapping out the barrel, which takes about 30 seconds, although I haven't bought the alternate barrels. There are other benefits as well to having this capability. It's also got the same double-action / single-action mechanism as the Beretta, which I like, and no safety, which I also like. My only complaint is that the grip is fat.

Here's a good video review of it, by a guy who likes Glocks, keep in mind he's not used to it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HKKLbxT8VQ
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Unlike civilian 1911 models, it was extremely reliable, when using military ammunition. New, or having been recently bench-tuned, they are as accurate as any modern pistol firing the same ammunition. [...]

In general, I'd take a good 9mm, such as the Beretta M9, over a civilian model 1911. However, if I were picking an automatic for concealed carry or use in confined spaces, (Edit: or to pistol-whip someone with), I might opt for a MILSPEC M1911.
I understand the benefit of bench tuning and straight-feed magazine, but what makes the civilian version otherwise less viable? What is different about it?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been looking at home defense weapons. Top two recommendations: 12 gauge, pump action shotgun with a short barrel firing #4 or #1 or 00 buckshot; double action revolver firing .38 special or .357 magnum. I was thinking of getting both (someday far in the future). Thoughts?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The .38 & .357 are likely to penetrate walls and put others at risk. That, afaik, is the main reason shotguns are recommended. A disadvantage of shotguns indoors is their size. Which is why I'm looking into hand guns which use shot shells (see my thread on the Governor with 159 yr track record).

Also, with shot, you don't have to be as accurate.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
I've been looking at home defense weapons. Top two recommendations: 12 gauge, pump action shotgun with a short barrel firing #1 or 00 buckshot; double action revolver firing .38 special or .357 magnum. I was thinking of getting both (someday far in the future). Thoughts?


The 12 gauge. It will be easy for either you or your wife to use and it won't go through the walls.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
dmitchell wrote:
I've been looking at home defense weapons. Top two recommendations: 12 gauge, pump action shotgun with a short barrel firing #1 or 00 buckshot; double action revolver firing .38 special or .357 magnum. I was thinking of getting both (someday far in the future). Thoughts?


The 12 gauge. It will be easy for either you or your wife to use and it won't go through the walls.
As many walls anyway. :wink:
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
The 12 gauge. It will be easy for either you or your wife to use and it won't go through the walls.

That's what I was thinking. Some people even suggest using birdshot. I've also read that low recoil buckshot is a good choice.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
Muso wrote:
The 12 gauge. It will be easy for either you or your wife to use and it won't go through the walls.

That's what I was thinking. Some people even suggest using birdshot. I've also read that low recoil buckshot is a good choice.


Get a Lupara
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remington Model 870 Marine Magnum. Excellent gun, used by our Coast Guard and others. It will last you forever, even if you forget about it for years in the back of some closet our out in your garage. Mossberg makes a similar gun, but I'm not familiar with it.

Get some professional instruction (or join a skeet/trap club, and you'll basically get it free), and practice with it.

12 gauge is a good choice. Plentiful ammunition widely available (good zombie apocalypse rating), and in a lot of variety (good non-lethal and less-lethal options). The Marine Magnum can also fire slugs that will take care of serious business.

Don't saw it off. It makes it easier to use indoors, but contrary to what you may hear, it doesn't make any difference in shot pattern at close range, it's probably illegal, and it will destroy resale value.

Get a single box of non-lethal rounds and keep one in there followed by three BB-shot shells, three buckshot shells, and a couple of slugs. Get a locking wall mount (be sure it not only locks the gun in place but locks the trigger), and put it somewhere out of site, out of reach to kids, and where you can get at it quickly from bed. Don't let your kid even see it until he's old enough to go the range and learn firearm safety and marksmanship (NRA has good programs).

In exchange for this advice, I have the C program that's giving me a headache...
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1911, you pretty much either love it or hate it.

I think it is an amazing piece of engineering, it just doesn't fit well with my hand/arm. The angle of the grip relative to the barrel causes me quite a bit of issue. So while I like to look at the 1911's and I would love to have a 10mm 1911, I hate holding them and shooting them.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BonezTheGoon wrote:
1911, you pretty much either love it or hate it.

I think it is an amazing piece of engineering, it just doesn't fit well with my hand/arm. The angle of the grip relative to the barrel causes me quite a bit of issue. So while I like to look at the 1911's and I would love to have a 10mm 1911, I hate holding them and shooting them.

With handguns, how it fits your hand is actually quite important in achieving accuracy. If you can't hold the gun comfortably (firmly but with evenly-spread pressure over as much contact surface as possible, and relaxed enough for a precisely controlled trigger pull with the first pad of the index finger, not the second pad or the joint between the two), then you will move the aim point as you're pulling the trigger.

I've taught a few people to shoot a pistol, and one of the things I like to do is, before ever letting them fire a round, have them hold the pistol in firing position, and balance a coin on the end of the slide or barrel, and have them practice pulling the trigger until they can do it consistently without the coin falling off.

Automatics are popular these days because of their sustained rate of fire (fast reload), but what person not on TV (other than military) really needs to be able to rapidly fire 15 rounds? There are a lot of people who would find they'd be much better off with a revolver if they tried a few. (Not saying that's you, just an obvious example of how different grips matter.)

The best way for an inexperienced handgun shooter to choose a gun is to first select a caliber based on their needs, then be instructed in a proper grip and trigger pull, and then to find a pistol in that caliber that "feels good" when they hold it (properly) and pull the trigger (properly).

I've seen a lot of people get it in their mind they want this pistol or that pistol, go out and buy it, and it's all wrong for them, most often because they thought they wanted something huge or tiny, or an automatic when they really need a revolver. Rifles need to fit people too, but it doesn't affect accuracy as much as with pistols.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Get a locking wall mount (be sure it not only locks the gun in place but locks the trigger), and put it somewhere out of site, out of reach to kids, and where you can get at it quickly from bed.
I don't disagree, but locking it to the wall, locking the trigger, and having it out of sight seems mutually exclusive to getting at it quickly from anywhere.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

petrjanda wrote:
dmitchell wrote:
Muso wrote:
The 12 gauge. It will be easy for either you or your wife to use and it won't go through the walls.

That's what I was thinking. Some people even suggest using birdshot. I've also read that low recoil buckshot is a good choice.


Get a Lupara

Quick way to have the ATF (Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms) murder your kid and wife.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Get a locking wall mount (be sure it not only locks the gun in place but locks the trigger), and put it somewhere out of site, out of reach to kids, and where you can get at it quickly from bed.
I don't disagree, but locking it to the wall, locking the trigger, and having it out of sight seems mutually exclusive to getting at it quickly from anywhere.


My brother-in-law that wanted both immediate access to his handgun and to have it in a locked safe found some product that is voice activated and is install-able in a wall. When the voice activation works the safe rapidly ejects a drawer holding the hand-gun ready to use. It's quite safe, but I have no idea how much it costs.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never understood why a hand gun can be legal, but a shortened rifle barrel is the end of the world.

Spending cuts: ATF.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Remington Model 870 Marine Magnum. Excellent gun, used by our Coast Guard and others. It will last you forever, even if you forget about it for years in the back of some closet our out in your garage. Mossberg makes a similar gun, but I'm not familiar with it.

The Mossberg is a little lighter but also a little longer and has lower capacity. Is the synthetic stock and nickel finish lower maintenance than other kinds? I love the appearance of glossy barrels and high polish wooden stocks but I might not go that route if it requires much more upkeep. How often do you check the condition of your guns?

Quote:
Get some professional instruction (or join a skeet/trap club, and you'll basically get it free), and practice with it.

12 gauge is a good choice. Plentiful ammunition widely available (good zombie apocalypse rating), and in a lot of variety (good non-lethal and less-lethal options). The Marine Magnum can also fire slugs that will take care of serious business.

Don't saw it off. It makes it easier to use indoors, but contrary to what you may hear, it doesn't make any difference in shot pattern at close range, it's probably illegal, and it will destroy resale value.

Get a single box of non-lethal rounds and keep one in there followed by three BB-shot shells, three buckshot shells, and a couple of slugs. Get a locking wall mount (be sure it not only locks the gun in place but locks the trigger), and put it somewhere out of site, out of reach to kids, and where you can get at it quickly from bed. Don't let your kid even see it until he's old enough to go the range and learn firearm safety and marksmanship (NRA has good programs).

In exchange for this advice, I have the C program that's giving me a headache...

Thanks for the tips. No intention of sawing anything off, I would just buy an 18" barrel like the Remington you suggested.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
I've seen a lot of people get it in their mind they want this pistol or that pistol, go out and buy it, and it's all wrong for them, most often because they thought they wanted something huge or tiny, or an automatic when they really need a revolver. Rifles need to fit people too, but it doesn't affect accuracy as much as with pistols.

That's interesting because a revolver seems like the obvious choice to me. I want something dead simple that Just Works 100% of the time. Like the Honda Civic of handguns.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Revolver++

That is all I'll say here. No, I don't own one. No, I can't get one. Is beautiful, simple. All I'm saying.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Revolvers are also much more well balanced, and they don't spit casings out all over the ground (with identifiable markings on them that can be matched to your weapon, not to mention probably your fingerprints). Not that this would ever come into play, but you never know what the future may hold.
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