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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
:lol:

My "main goal" isn't to pay less taxes; I'm more interested in resisting the erosion of individual rights by authoritarian collectivism, who are working hard and effectively to take us all to Orwellian Hell.


Universal healthcare funded by compulsory taxation = authoritarian collectivism
But how does this erode the individual rights? only forcing them to pay taxes, since you can still refuse healthcare.
So apparently you are not against universal health care but all boils down to the detail of taxation ..... still pay less taxes appears to be the main goal.

It erodes individual rights by making each individual accountable to the collective (by way of state monitoring and enforcement) for every aspect of their behavior that effects the likely future cost of the healthcare, which is pretty much everything. Don't knee-jerk, keep reading.

It establishes a very powerful incentive for the state to establish extremely intrusive restriction and control of individual behavior (what you eat, drink, breathe, and do; the number of colories you burn, the degree to which your muscles and joints are being exercised, the levels of a hundred various things in your blood). In short, it establishes a very powerful driver for doctors to become a police arm of the state, with people subjected to behavioral modification (punishment and reward) for certain standard behaviors.

We're talking even worse than 1984; we're talking THX-1138 (anybody who hasn't seen that should suffer through it at least once). We don't want to go there, so we should avoid creating driving forces that will take us there. I, for one, don't want to be THX-1138 and don't want my descendants to be THX-1138. Just kill me now and terminate the genetics. People say, "oh, that will never happen", or "I don't see that happening", but the truth is that such changes happen at whatever pace people will tolerate, and we're already learning to tolerate things like fat fines, sugar taxes, genetic profiling, and "pre-crime" body thermal scanners.

This would be like being turned into ants in an ant farm. Humans are individuals, and individuals must be protected from collectivism. The greatest crimes against humanity have been committed in the name of the common good, where individual rights have been subordinated to the welfare of the collective. While creating a "social safety net" is a good idea, it doesn't have to be done in such a way that turns society into a giant ant farm with deeply-rooted incentives driving inexorable erosion of individual liberty.

I think I'd probably accept "universal healthcare" at state or county level, given the current condition of our healthcare system. At least that way there's a cellular aspect to it, competition, and the ability to move if you don't like it. I'd prefer complete government disinvolvement, allowing competition to bring prices back down to where they were before government implemented Medicare and Medicaid, screwing up competition, but that's never going to happen.
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erm67
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 130
Location: somewhere in Berlusconia.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:

It erodes individual rights by making each individual accountable to the collective (by way of state monitoring and enforcement) for every aspect of their behavior that effects the likely future cost of the healthcare, which is pretty much everything.

Well that sounds like cutting one's arm because the fingernails are dirty ....

Since we are in a supposedly technical forum how should this state monitoring work? large databases? why should the government spend so much to force healthcare to the unhealthy, it is a lot easier to define a basic set of healthcare services free and exclude others, universal healthcare doesn't mean that 'all' healtcare services are free or guaranteed, usually it includes just a basic set ... It is easier to exclude statin from the set of drugs freely available than force a healthy diet and physical exercise on everybody ... You are overestimating the 'universal' part of universal healthcare.


BoneKracker wrote:

People say, "oh, that will never happen", or "I don't see that happening", but the truth is that such changes happen at whatever pace people will tolerate, and we're already learning to tolerate things like fat fines, sugar taxes, genetic profiling, and "pre-crime" body thermal scanners.

Fat fines and sugar taxes are just excuse to introduce new taxes ;-(



BoneKracker wrote:

I think I'd probably accept "universal healthcare" at state or county level, given the current condition of our healthcare system. At least that way there's a cellular aspect to it, competition, and the ability to move if you don't like it. I'd prefer complete government disinvolvement, allowing competition to bring prices back down to where they were before government implemented Medicare and Medicaid, screwing up competition, but that's never going to happen.


Competition can be generated also in a single payer system (generics, duplicate systems), and most people prefer not to pay for health care when healty and take the risk or just overvalue themself, if it is not compulsory it won't work.
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