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ichbinsisyphos
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:59 pm    Post subject: NRA to the rescue! Reply with quote

Was this really not posted yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glwggRUAQBk
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sikpuppy
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do they blame Gangsta Rap too? I listen to that and it makes me want to bust a cap into a Radio DJ. Fo' Sho' nigger.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dupe

And they're right, although they forgot 'the dissolution of the family unit' and 'poor parenting'.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
dupe

And they're right, although they forgot 'the dissolution of the family unit' and 'poor parenting'.


all contributing factors no doubt, along with the proliferation of guns.
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sikpuppy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They can have my shoebombs when they take them from my cold dead feet. They can have my pantsbombs when they pull them from my cold dead genitals.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Things that explode are not a problem unless somebody uses them to violate somebody else's rights.

The problem is violence and people's propensity to commit it, not which tool they choose. If we follow this logic, we put everybody in padded cells so nobody can hurt anybody. The answer is removing the reasons why some people want to lash out at society. Trying to solve such problems by taking all the sharp objects is paternalistic nonsense and denial.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Things that explode are not a problem unless somebody uses them to violate somebody else's rights.

The problem is violence and people's propensity to commit it, not which tool they choose. If we follow this logic, we put everybody in padded cells so nobody can hurt anybody. The answer is removing the reasons why some people want to lash out at society. Trying to solve such problems by taking all the sharp objects is paternalistic nonsense and denial.


denial: the tool isn't part of the problem. Yes, you are correct that those other things are factors too.

we saw this on dec 14. In the US a madman entered a school and killed 20 kids with guns. On the same day, a madman in china entered a school with a knife and INJURED 22 kids (2 seriously, no deaths). See? Same type of person, different tool. The tool is part of the equation.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denial. It may be part of whatever your cherry-picked "equation" is (e.g. focusing in on homicide only and ignoring all the other horrific violence), but it's still neither the cause nor an effective solution, and it violates rights.
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Mardok45
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:

denial: the tool isn't part of the problem. Yes, you are correct that those other things are factors too.

we saw this on dec 14. In the US a madman entered a school and killed 20 kids with guns. On the same day, a madman in china entered a school with a knife and INJURED 22 kids (2 seriously, no deaths). See? Same type of person, different tool. The tool is part of the equation.

Yes, you're probably right that taking away the tool will help a lot.

But it's not realistic.

There is absolutely no way we can go into each individual home and take away everyone's firearms, and there's no way we can convince people to throw away their firearms. It's unconstitutional. Moreover, if we do that, we're giving the baddies even more of an advantage in that they are armed, and the law-abiding good citizens are not.

Also, if we start passing stricter gun control laws, we're just going to push the issue into the black market where the dealers won't give two-fucks about who they're selling to. So it's not going to change much.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mardok45 wrote:
juniper wrote:

denial: the tool isn't part of the problem. Yes, you are correct that those other things are factors too.

we saw this on dec 14. In the US a madman entered a school and killed 20 kids with guns. On the same day, a madman in china entered a school with a knife and INJURED 22 kids (2 seriously, no deaths). See? Same type of person, different tool. The tool is part of the equation.

Yes, you're probably right that taking away the tool will help a lot.

But it's not realistic.

There is absolutely no way we can go into each individual home and take away everyone's firearms, and there's no way we can convince people to throw away their firearms. It's unconstitutional. Moreover, if we do that, we're giving the baddies even more of an advantage in that they are armed, and the law-abiding good citizens are not.

Also, if we start passing stricter gun control laws, we're just going to push the issue into the black market where the dealers won't give two-fucks about who they're selling to. So it's not going to change much.


I won't pretend it will be easy to take away the guns.

However, these are americans. They are crafty. What about hitting the supply side? Or hitting the most dangerous weapons?
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Mardok45
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:

I won't pretend it will be easy to take away the guns.

However, these are americans. They are crafty. What about hitting the supply side? Or hitting the most dangerous weapons?

I guarantee that if you do anything to restrict access to firearms, it's going to just push it into the black market, potentially making things even worse.

And lets not forget about 3D printers...
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juniper
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mardok45 wrote:
juniper wrote:

I won't pretend it will be easy to take away the guns.

However, these are americans. They are crafty. What about hitting the supply side? Or hitting the most dangerous weapons?

I guarantee that if you do anything to restrict access to firearms, it's going to just push it into the black market, potentially making things even worse.

And lets not forget about 3D printers...


The US is one of the largest manufacturers of guns. How will it force manufacturing to the black market? It's pretty hard to set up a gun factory. It will then need to be shipped in.

3D printers are expensive.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nra's lapierre gets pummelled in interview
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Mardok45
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:

The US is one of the largest manufacturers of guns. How will it force manufacturing to the black market? It's pretty hard to set up a gun factory. It will then need to be shipped in.

3D printers are expensive.

It's not going to force manufacturing into the black market, it's going to put the currently manufactured guns into the black market, and I imagine there's going to be an increase in cross-country smuggling.

And 3D printers will get cheaper as time goes on if they take off in popularity.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mardok45 wrote:
juniper wrote:

The US is one of the largest manufacturers of guns. How will it force manufacturing to the black market? It's pretty hard to set up a gun factory. It will then need to be shipped in.

3D printers are expensive.

It's not going to force manufacturing into the black market, it's going to put the currently manufactured guns into the black market, and I imagine there's going to be an increase in cross-country smuggling.

And 3D printers will get cheaper as time goes on if they take off in popularity.


i never said make sales illegal for the reason you are stating.
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sikpuppy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think if a lot of people start using guns produced by 3D printers then I would suggest buying shares in prosthetic hand manufacturers. And that's just for the handguns, using a rifle would probably have someone's eye out with splinters of polyprop flying hither and thither.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the 50's the civil rights movement looked like an impossible dream. Racist ideas were thoroughly normalized and deeply embedded in society. Some of these people didn't even think they were doing anything wrong but, whether they knew it or not, they were all thoroughly toxic people with toxic ideas which carried a great human cost.

Just as the civil rights movement was the great challenge facing American society in the 50's and 60's, guns are the great challenge facing American society today. The parallels are striking. Widespread gun ownership is equally harmful and gun myths are just as deeply embedded as racism was. These beliefs are often held by people who not only insist they aren't doing anything wrong but that their toxic ideas are positively patriotic.

There was a time when civil rights seemed impossible too - but look what happened.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Founding Fathers state in the Federalist Papers that one purpose of the Second Amendment is to keep the citizens armed enough for the government to be kept in check.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@mcgruff

:facepalm:

Fallacy upon fallacy upon fallacy. The right to bear arms is itself a civil right, and a critical one. Your head has been been twisted completely upside down on this. :lol: :roll:

The problem is not firearms; we have always had them. Something is going wrong with culture, and it's not just in the United States.


Last edited by Bones McCracker on Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Prenj
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just fucking shot myself!

Year after!

:lol:
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juniper
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
The Founding Fathers state in the Federalist Papers that one purpose of the Second Amendment is to keep the citizens armed enough for the government to be kept in check.


TSA *cough* patriot act *cough*

how's that working?
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not very well. Things didn't turn out as they intended. But I'd prefer to hold as much to the Constitution as I possibly can.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They say that generals always try to fight the previous war because they fail to realise how the dynamics of conflict have changed. A need for the citizenry to bear arms might have made sense in a revolution but became redundant when the war was won. The second amendment was an anachronism even before the ink had time to dry.

Instead of fetishising the institutions of a primitive society in the age of sailing ships and armoured codpieces, you might want to recalibrate your beliefs to our sophisticated, modern world and target some of the real threats to democracy such as campaign financing.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahhhhhhh... There's that word again. "Sophisticated." I can't tell you blissful lefties get whenever they throw that word out. Just by doing so, they sound...sophisticated.

Well, over-sophistication tends to cause failure. So I prefer to not be sophisticated. I like keeping things simple. And speaking of simple, here are a few points:

1. I have guns.
2. They are about to be extremely secured (currently at an undisclosed location pending execution of a gun safe).
3. Leave me alone.
4. I will leave you alone.
5. If you try to confiscate my weapons, I will fucking kill you.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure, if you try, you can think of one or two ways in which modern societies are more sophisticated than that of the American colonies.

You'd better be perfectly clear that "cold dead hands" isn't the devastating threat you think it is. If that's what it takes to make communities safe, so be it. 1,000 recalcitrant, dead gun owners are not worth one murdered child.

What libertarians like to call "persecution" normal people call "civilisation".
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