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Prenj
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
Prenj, when your post is being ++ed by our resident French mime, tells you a lot doesn't it?

Religion isn't the problem. It is the religion, which is the problem.


I'd say that that particular religion is just further down the road from the insight that we got it wrong in first place. After all, we paid the price of freedom from regimented dogmatic thought in blood and tears. I don't think we should sell it that easily, is all I'm saying.
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Muso
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
notageek wrote:
Religion isn't the problem. It is the religion, which is the problem.


I'd say that that particular religion is just further down the road from the insight that we got it wrong in first place. After all, we paid the price of freedom from regimented dogmatic thought in blood and tears. I don't think we should sell it that easily, is all I'm saying.


However, it's like saying the lunatic with the rusty pair of scissors running up to you is just slightly more dangerous than the bumble bee floating close to you.
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Prenj
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
Prenj wrote:
notageek wrote:
Religion isn't the problem. It is the religion, which is the problem.


I'd say that that particular religion is just further down the road from the insight that we got it wrong in first place. After all, we paid the price of freedom from regimented dogmatic thought in blood and tears. I don't think we should sell it that easily, is all I'm saying.


However, it's like saying the lunatic with the rusty pair of scissors running up to you is just slightly more dangerous than the bumble bee floating close to you.


Of course we can argue about the scale of things. But to say we are white and they are black, while, at the same time, bombing innocent villagers around the world is bullshit. We are all monkeys. Nobody is civilised. Thats not saying that we should tolerate whatever crazed sura-mumbling jihadist do, but lets not outlaw ONE religion and pretend that others are fine. It's ALL bullshit.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
Of course we can argue about the scale of things.


Yes. Your thrown pebble vs my ICBM.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
Prenj wrote:
Of course we can argue about the scale of things.


Yes. Your thrown pebble vs my ICBM.


I DO have a pebble. You, however, do not have an ICBM. Thats your problem in US, realizing who is who. :)
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
Muso wrote:
Prenj wrote:
Of course we can argue about the scale of things.


Yes. Your thrown pebble vs my ICBM.


I DO have a pebble. You, however, do not have an ICBM. Thats your problem in US, realizing who is who. :)


You might want to pull your cranium from your backside. You rightly point out that irrational belief in magical sky monsters is a problem, but you conflate those who simply have wish-thinking based upon such, and those who take assassination contracts from them.


Also, to assume that my views came about because I currently live in the USA is laughable. You might want to travel outside of Europe before you consider yourself worldly ;)
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ichbinsisyphos
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the point of forcing somebody to convert to Islam? Forcing an annoying person to convert to Americunt, now that I can understand. Then you can force it on its knees and shoot it in the back of its hideously ugly head with your Glock, without legal consequences or a bad conscience.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The yodelling turd appears to be off his meds again, or has once again been cut off from a relative's will.
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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
The yodelling turd appears to be off his meds again, or has once again been cut off from a relative's will.


4 Schanzen Tournee is coming up. Have a bit o sympathy ok? He should revert to 'normal' mode around the 5th. Maybe even the 3rd.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
Prenj wrote:
Muso wrote:
Prenj wrote:
Of course we can argue about the scale of things.


Yes. Your thrown pebble vs my ICBM.


I DO have a pebble. You, however, do not have an ICBM. Thats your problem in US, realizing who is who. :)


You might want to pull your cranium from your backside. You rightly point out that irrational belief in magical sky monsters is a problem, but you conflate those who simply have wish-thinking based upon such, and those who take assassination contracts from them.


Also, to assume that my views came about because I currently live in the USA is laughable. You might want to travel outside of Europe before you consider yourself worldly ;)


Oh how presumptious. Head in ass? ICBM's? Simply wish-thinking? Really?

I thought you were trying to pass yourself off as a man of exquisite tastes, yet you sound exactly like your random salafist... "it's not us, it's them". Raging and insulting when people disagree. Funny that, ain't it.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ichbinsisyphos wrote:
What's the point of forcing somebody to convert to Islam?


It's funny, because the modern history teaches us that the ostriches successfully convert their daughters to their wives.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll bet he wasn't accosted by Muslims at all. This sounds just like one of those fake rape victim reports. "Three big black back guys held me down and fondled and sucked on everything while they kept thrusting their huge, throbbing penises into me over and over and over and over! It was awful!"

I bet somebody fucked him up for fooling around with their sister or something, but he's ashamed to admit it because he's married or something. So, convenient excuse that people are eager to believe.
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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
I'll bet he wasn't accosted by Muslims at all. This sounds just like one of those fake rape victim reports. "Three big black back guys held me down and fondled and sucked on everything while they kept thrusting their huge, throbbing penises into me over and over and over and over! It was awful!"

I bet somebody fucked him up for fooling around with their sister or something, but he's ashamed to admit it because he's married or something. So, convenient excuse that people are eager to believe.


problem is - in Köln is a large infestation of agressive, violent salafists... so.. it doesn't sound far fetched. Also turkish youth are just looking for excuses to beat people up for no reasons at all...
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AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, I see. Germany has a Turkish Problem. You ought to do something about that.
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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Ah, I see. Germany has a Turkish Problem. You ought to do something about that.


I would, but my solutions are deemed to be too 'extreme'....
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AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Ah, I see. Germany has a Turkish Problem. You ought to do something about that.

I don't know why em76b brought up Köln. The salafist infestation is based in Bonn, Bad Godesberg specifically.
Coincidentally there was a (failed) bombing attempt at Bonn Central Station just a few weeks ago.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soon, it will be too late to do anything about it.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
No. What I am saying is that ideologies, religion, indoctrination, etc form the collective thinking (this is their purpose). So the question of blaming religion, vs blaming people and their actions become less black-and-white when you consider that peoples actions are result of a mindset formed by religion.
Formed partly by religion. And in some cases, no religion is the religion which forms the mindset. And since atrocities are committed by people who oppose religion, then religion isn't the problem.

Prenj wrote:
What happens when you have people of different religions all claiming to be white and the other side black? If there was no religion, you'd only see people.
I don't agree. Religion isn't the only cause. I believe it would exist with the absence of religion. People would just find something else. I guess that's where we'll have to agree to disagree.

Prenj wrote:
And in the end, if dogma of Bible, Quran, etc etc are not literally true, what point is there to hold them in higher esteem then Lord of the Rings, or Star Wars? Would we consider people killing people in NY subway because they think of themselves as Jedi, and the others as Sith, anything but insane? What's the difference really, except that one book is older then the other? It's just a book.
Dogma and the Bible are not the same thing. Many of the teachings by the person who was Jesus have merit. If you think the "teachings" of George Lucas have merit, that's fine by me. Your choice. But we have laws, irrespective of various beliefs. So as long as your beliefs don't violate our laws, I don't care if you call yourself a Jedi. But murder is illegal (here) whether you're an atheist, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist or Jedi.
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Prenj
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Many of the teachings by the person who was Jesus have merit.


Agreed. Jesus, if he existed, is the only christian that ever lived. Rest are just members of the JC Fan Club.

Yoda had merit too. John Lennon had merit. Gandalf had merit.

Giordano Bruno also had merit.

Let's cut the crap. I find it hillarious that conservatives in USA (and around the world for that matter) are rooting for religion, without taking a pause and thinking about it what in fact are they rooting for. Jesus said "love thy enemy". That is not conservative way. Conservatives don't give a shit about what Jesus said, what they like about religion is the power-preserving structure that Church provides. If they cared about Jesus, or his teachings, they wouldn't be conservatives or push profiteering and materialism as the True Way.

Jesus was a hippie.
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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Prenj wrote:
No. What I am saying is that ideologies, religion, indoctrination, etc form the collective thinking (this is their purpose). So the question of blaming religion, vs blaming people and their actions become less black-and-white when you consider that peoples actions are result of a mindset formed by religion.
Formed partly by religion. And in some cases, no religion is the religion which forms the mindset. And since atrocities are committed by people who oppose religion, then religion isn't the problem.

Prenj wrote:
What happens when you have people of different religions all claiming to be white and the other side black? If there was no religion, you'd only see people.
I don't agree. Religion isn't the only cause. I believe it would exist with the absence of religion. People would just find something else. I guess that's where we'll have to agree to disagree.

Prenj wrote:
And in the end, if dogma of Bible, Quran, etc etc are not literally true, what point is there to hold them in higher esteem then Lord of the Rings, or Star Wars? Would we consider people killing people in NY subway because they think of themselves as Jedi, and the others as Sith, anything but insane? What's the difference really, except that one book is older then the other? It's just a book.
Dogma and the Bible are not the same thing. Many of the teachings by the person who was Jesus have merit. If you think the "teachings" of George Lucas have merit, that's fine by me. Your choice. But we have laws, irrespective of various beliefs. So as long as your beliefs don't violate our laws, I don't care if you call yourself a Jedi. But murder is illegal (here) whether you're an atheist, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist or Jedi.


'Merit'? Stop working, stop feeding your family, don't think about tomorrow - 'merit'?

That 'guy' was a mad rambler who really thought that the end of the world was imminent. An insanse person.
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AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nice summary of Jesus vs Jeezus:
http://www.thepaincomics.com/weekly050504.htm
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AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
Oh how presumptious. Head in ass? ICBM's? Simply wish-thinking? Really?


Yes, though it appears that you have misunderstood my comment about pebbles and ICBMs. I was pointing out how aggression is bad, but there are degrees... and a pebble thrown vs an ICBM was the extreme example. I probably should have phrased it in a way that didn't actually imply either one of us, as that was not the intent of the analogy.

As for the head/ass scenario, I stand by that. You are conflating too many isms when the discussion is specific to theism. Of all of the theisms in the world, the most dangerous to both believers and non-believers is Islam.

As for wish thinking, I do think that my post was clear enough. It is one thing to believe in the absurd, it is another thing to take assassination contracts from the absurd. To deny that obvious fact only proves my cranial~backside analogy.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Head-Ass analogies are very useful.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
As for the head/ass scenario, I stand by that. You are conflating too many isms when the discussion is specific to theism. Of all of the theisms in the world, the most dangerous to both believers and non-believers is Islam.


Yes, currently. Which doesn't mean that Islam is bad, christianity is good. Christianity was just the same few hundred years ago. Or do you deny that? Hell, americans are living proof of it.

So who's got a head in their butthole I wonder.


energyman76b wrote:
nice summary of Jesus vs Jeezus:
http://www.thepaincomics.com/weekly050504.htm


Indeed.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that, unless you abandon logic entirely, the only thing you can really conclude there is "who had their head in their butthole a few hundred years ago" (i.e., Europeans). Whether that's relevant to the discussion now must then be argued.

If you want to assert Christian, or American, heads are in asses today, you need a new argument, and that cartoon isn't really getting the job done: it's a manipulative conflation of several discrete bigoted stereotypes. For example, people saying "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" are not Christians; I've never heard one argument for the right to bear arms on a religious basis; and a couple of cherry-picked quotes are an absurdly weak pretense that Christianity doesn't discourage drunkenness and sexual promiscuity (like all the Abrahamic faiths). It's cute, but it's a typically sophomoric and strawman-based "progressive" appeal to ridicule.

There are so many valid criticisms of organized religion; why resort to flawed logic to attack it? It just weakens the case and makes it look like ignorant bigotry.
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