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geki Advocate
Joined: 13 May 2004 Posts: 2387 Location: Germania
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:14 pm Post subject: kernel 3.7 vs device manager (like udev) |
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hi there!
I have a pc without any kind of cdrom, a kernel setup without any kernel modules and make use of kernel's devtmpfs.
though, my network card needs to load a firmware which kernel 3.7 can do by itself.
I realized I do not need kmod and I wonder ... do I need a device manager like udev at all?!
I guess for usb storage devices, though, only if devtmpfs does not manage that.
any ideas ... pointer ... etc? thanks! _________________ hear hear |
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audiodef Watchman
Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 6639 Location: The soundosphere
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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You could possibly, under highly specific circumstances, not start udev, but you do not want to actually remove it:
Code: |
emerge -pC udev
* This action can remove important packages! In order to be safer, use
* `emerge -pv --depclean <atom>` to check for reverse dependencies before
* removing packages.
>>> These are the packages that would be unmerged:
!!! 'sys-fs/udev' (virtual/dev-manager) is part of your system profile.
!!! Unmerging it may be damaging to your system.
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_________________ decibel Linux: https://decibellinux.org
Github: https://github.com/Gentoo-Music-and-Audio-Technology
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/decibellinux
Discord: https://discord.gg/73XV24dNPN |
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VoidMage Watchman
Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 6196
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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You seem to be forgetting about side effects.
I.e. xorg expects tagging done by udev for input hotplug, udisks do use udev rules too... |
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geki Advocate
Joined: 13 May 2004 Posts: 2387 Location: Germania
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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hmm, usb keyboard and usb mouse is managed by udev? iek.
what are udisks?
at some point xorg had a udev useflag, is that hardwired now? _________________ hear hear |
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dmpogo Advocate
Joined: 02 Sep 2004 Posts: 3267 Location: Canada
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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geki wrote: | hmm, usb keyboard and usb mouse is managed by udev? iek.
what are udisks?
at some point xorg had a udev useflag, is that hardwired now? |
well, you can disable autodetect of the input devices in X |
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geki Advocate
Joined: 13 May 2004 Posts: 2387 Location: Germania
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Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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looks like I will be on a hell ride this weekend.
hopefully, I remember to binpkg udev first. _________________ hear hear |
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hcaulfield57 Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 13 Mar 2012 Posts: 148
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Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:34 am Post subject: |
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You can probably get rid of udev on your system, but there are a couple things you will have to watch out for. The most visible issue you may run into is that xf86-input-evdev requires xorg-server to be build with the 'udev' use flag. If you do not do this, you will have to use xf86-input-mouse and xf86-input-keyboard, which is not really an issue at all, it's just something you will have to be aware of. Secondly, if you use only devtmpfs (as far as I can remember), device nodes in /dev will not have correct permissions. The primary role of udev now is to fix those permissions. For this reason I would suggest either switching to static-dev which will have correct permissions (assuming you don't want a device manager), or switch to either mdev (for a minimal device manager), or eudev (for a minimally invasive udev replacement). _________________ "To design the perfect anti-Unix, make all file formats binary and opaque, and require heavyweight tools to read and edit them." - The Art of Unix Programming |
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geki Advocate
Joined: 13 May 2004 Posts: 2387 Location: Germania
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Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:44 am Post subject: |
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luckily I do not use evdev. I better save a list of /dev to compare. _________________ hear hear |
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hcaulfield57 Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 13 Mar 2012 Posts: 148
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Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:13 am Post subject: |
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I actually am curious what xf86-input-evdev offers that xf86-input-{mouse, keyboard} do not. However on an older installation I used mouse and keyboard and could not tell any difference, I'm not quite sure there is one (that's noticeable at least). _________________ "To design the perfect anti-Unix, make all file formats binary and opaque, and require heavyweight tools to read and edit them." - The Art of Unix Programming |
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audiodef Watchman
Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 6639 Location: The soundosphere
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derk Guru
Joined: 10 Mar 2003 Posts: 347 Location: St Thomas Ontario
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Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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evdev is unique to linux .. I believe bsd unix's also use X, but do not have evdev capability ... so use keyboard and mouse drivers instead
also udev is unique to linux as well so udev flag still exists to remove it for x86-fbsd and amd64-fbsd arch usage
there is a nice guide to setting up mdev via busybox[mdev] on the wiki .. works .. just follow directions I used it for a while .. |
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geki Advocate
Joined: 13 May 2004 Posts: 2387 Location: Germania
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Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:44 am Post subject: |
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xorg/openbox starts without any dev-manager. fun
apache2/php/mysql engine shows up in browser.
but I better use busybox[mdev] for proper /dev access rights.
who knows what silently fails ...
the next step for the kernel is to manage proper /dev access rights. then ... !! _________________ hear hear |
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geki Advocate
Joined: 13 May 2004 Posts: 2387 Location: Germania
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Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:49 am Post subject: |
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I wonder if busybox[mdev] needs that init script to mount /proc and /sys.
it is mounted here without any dev-manager ...
edit #1
1. the script /sbin/linuxrc is not necessary here.
2. I had to remove devfs from sysinit runlevel
(devfs <-> mdev waiting for each other, funny dependency failure).
3. /dev/mem and /dev/kmem are now root:root vs root:kmem ... whysoever
edit #2
4. adding devpts to /etc/fstab restored my virtual terminals
yay, I am finally there.
any comments? anyone interested to verify and update the wiki? _________________ hear hear |
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SlashBeast Retired Dev
Joined: 23 May 2006 Posts: 2922
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Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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If you are interesed in running mdev you can be happy with my scripts and config: https://github.com/slashbeast/mdev-like-a-boss it also cover xorg configuration. I do run mdev on every gentoo box I own.
You can simply add foo-overlay and emerge mdev-like-a-boss and add mdev to sysinit runlevel, and you are free to remove devfs and all udev* init scripts from there. The mdev-like-a-boss will pull mdev-bb which is the busybox's mdev but as a single, not multi-cell binary. I do need it as I use grsecurity's RBAC and I woudn't want let every busybox's applet access to /dev. |
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DaggyStyle Watchman
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5909
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Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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does mdev supports input hotplug? _________________ Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein |
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SlashBeast Retired Dev
Joined: 23 May 2006 Posts: 2922
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Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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well it does create nodes on hotplug, the usb keyboards work as hotplug and mouses as well if you set them to /dev/input/mice. As far as I know Xorg crew works on real hotplug support without evdev (udev) backend which is linux-only. |
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DaggyStyle Watchman
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5909
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Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:15 am Post subject: |
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SlashBeast wrote: | well it does create nodes on hotplug, the usb keyboards work as hotplug and mouses as well if you set them to /dev/input/mice. As far as I know Xorg crew works on real hotplug support without evdev (udev) backend which is linux-only. |
so I'll have to wait for xorg's crew to finish the work before I can migrate my multiseat setup to mdev, ok thanks _________________ Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein |
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geki Advocate
Joined: 13 May 2004 Posts: 2387 Location: Germania
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Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:41 am Post subject: |
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SlashBeast
sounds quite sane to have a standalone mdev.
don't you want to push like sys-fs/mdev to portage?
your overlay looks quite big. _________________ hear hear |
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SlashBeast Retired Dev
Joined: 23 May 2006 Posts: 2922
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Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:20 am Post subject: |
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geki wrote: | SlashBeast
sounds quite sane to have a standalone mdev.
don't you want to push like sys-fs/mdev to portage?
your overlay looks quite big. |
If you wish not to happen install anything beside mdev from the overlay you can aid your package.mask with:
and package.unmask with:
Code: | sys-fs/mdev-bb::foo-overlay
sys-fs/mdev-like-a-boss::foo-overlay |
Even if I push mdev to portage, the mdev-like-a-boss would be out-of-tree, managing it into portage tree would be kinda hard because I am not a developer and poking one of devs to pull my changes would take from minute to ages ;p Also some of my code in the very ebuilds propably does not meet the gentoo's ebuild standards. |
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VoidMage Watchman
Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 6196
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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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xf86-input-evdev driver is for handling /dev/input/event* nodes.
As these nodes can be just about anything (i.e. pc speaker has such node), either some test need to be done on the node (basically heuristics, so guesses) or udev markings can be used (udev has its own heuristics, but at least the blame is shifted and udev does have more complete info as it receives the node).
udisks is the storage hotplug backend used by the major DEs (either via solid (KDE) or gvfs). |
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Gusar Advocate
Joined: 09 Apr 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: Slovenia
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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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SlashBeast wrote: | As far as I know Xorg crew works on real hotplug support without evdev (udev) backend which is linux-only. |
Do you have any links about that? I'd be interested in reading the details and how far the implementation is. |
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