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juniper
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:

Even if your plan was feasible and worked as intended (wait, what's your plan? confiscate all privately owned guns?), your point is that on average people are safer. That doesn't mean any particular individual is safer. So essentially the bargain you are offering is this: give up your ability to defend yourself and your ability to decide for yourself how much safety you need, and we can make a fictitious "average citizen" safer.


The average person is fictitious, but the murder rate isn't. if it goes way down, that is a good thing, no?

No plan here, just like gun advocates. It's a hard problem, but I would like start on the supply side and reduce the number of legal guns produced. reduce the number of available guns to start.

I don't get your point about "no particular individual is safer". Most individuals will be safer, and some won't. So, you haven't stated my grand bargain correctly: it should be that everyone gives up their guns (not just you) and you are likely to be safer as the need for a gun goes way down.

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Putting another gun in the hands of the right person couldn't have stopped this? I don't agree.


you may not have 20 dead kids, but you are going to have 10 or more. The guy will make sure he has an automatic weapon (because he KNOWS someone has a gun, see how it works?) and knock off as many people as possible quickly. He will hit 10 before anybody even know what is going on.

Quote:

No, there are two separate questions: how do we prevent this sort of thing from happening in the first place, and how do we prepare ourselves in case it does happen. The answer to the first question involves things like mental health, the family, rethinking the use psychoactive medications, and so on. The answer to the second question involves things like having the tools you need for self-defense.


what if those two questions are linked and at odds? Have more guns, including principals and teachers and maybe some well trained kids too. do you think that won't effect your first point? So, a possible answer to your first question is gun control.

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Quote:
But you'll end up with a tragedy of the commons scenario.

I don't understand.


you will have an arms race. Let's pretend we are in your fictitious paradise where the principal and every teacher is armed. No nut is going to walk into the school with a lightly chiseled stake; he is going to come in even more heavily armed than he would have otherwise. he will always have the element of surprise on his side.

Did you know that the same thing happened on the very same day in China? An armed nut entered an elementary school there are started attacking kids. The key difference? He had a knife. 22 kids injured, 0 dead.

chinese knife attacker injures 22 kids.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bigun wrote:
juniper wrote:
The strange thing is that we (you and I) seem to be proving my point. Both of us seem to be anti violence from previous posts, but your reaction to this is MORE guns. This guy lives in a society where the answer is more guns, regardless of the question. Is it a mystery that he resorted to this?


How is this processing?

Guns != violence

Guns == hunk of metal

Every experience I've seen with weapons (of any form) in the right hands usually winds up restoring order.


bombs == hunk of steel. knife == hunk of steel. different levels of mayhem from each.

I have no experience with guns. The worst law and order incident I came across was in the US (of course). I was in a store held up by knife point. The clerk didn't pull out a gun. No one got hurt, including the teen who was high who held up the place. He was apprehended right outside the store. Civilized.
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Bigun
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Bigun wrote:
juniper wrote:
The strange thing is that we (you and I) seem to be proving my point. Both of us seem to be anti violence from previous posts, but your reaction to this is MORE guns. This guy lives in a society where the answer is more guns, regardless of the question. Is it a mystery that he resorted to this?


How is this processing?

Guns != violence

Guns == hunk of metal

Every experience I've seen with weapons (of any form) in the right hands usually winds up restoring order.


bombs == hunk of steel. knife == hunk of steel. different levels of mayhem from each.

I have no experience with guns. The worst law and order incident I came across was in the US (of course). I was in a store held up by knife point. The clerk didn't pull out a gun. No one got hurt, including the teen who was high who held up the place. He was apprehended right outside the store. Civilized.


If it were me and I was carrying, I wouldn't have drawn either. Now if he threatened me specifically and started coming at me, he'd be dead.

But that incident is tame to some of the incidents I come across working in law enforcement (you, know.... that kind of tale you encountered, day in and day out). Some are not so lucky.

One incident in particular was when someone of one race was being chased by a mob of another (you can fill in the blanks, I'm not going to), yelling obscene racial slurs and some of them carrying bats. Now, how in the world could that be solved civilly? (PS - don't claim it isn't rare, this is at least the third mob chase I've heard of since I've started working here, news agencies just don't care to report on it).
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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, if he is less than 5m away from you, he will kill you before you can pull and shoot. Just a reminder. Pistols, revolvers&co are useless if the attacker is closeby - or far away (pretty much everthing past 25m)
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Bigun
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

18 feet is what I've been trained on, but yes, you are correct.

energyman76b wrote:
well, if he is less than 5m away from you, he will kill you before you can pull and shoot. Just a reminder. Pistols, revolvers&co are useless if the attacker is closeby - or far away (pretty much everthing past 25m)
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pjp
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
well, if he is less than 5m away from you, he will kill you before you can pull and shoot. Just a reminder. Pistols, revolvers&co are useless if the attacker is closeby - or far away (pretty much everthing past 25m)
Depends on those involved. So I guess if you're a ninja, you might not have to worry.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bigun wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
Columbine had armed guards - and did that help?


I'm calling BS... source please. (and armed guards before the shooting, not after)

Only reason I am is because it's one of the main shootings I've studied (near obsessed at one point), and I don't ever remember reading or hearing anything about armed guards.

*edit*

In the other thread you made the same argument, going there and stating the same thing is redundant, I'm keeping it here.

*edit*

*remembering they had rent-a-cops*

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yeah, that counts.


NRA head talks about the armed guards at columbine. So, they were there.
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Bigun
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More food for thought
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juniper
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bigun wrote:
More food for thought


Pick and choosing stats? What a great example!

He talks of how the media picks and chooses and does so himself.

Main argument: homicide is lower in england than the US, but violent crime rate is much higher. However, unlike homicide (which is the most reliable crime statistic the world over), violent crime rate is difficult to compare country to country because of differing definitions (he of course doesn't mention that). In fact, these definitions can be so different as to make comparison meaningless. Thus, the most reliable and comparable stat says that the US is much more violent.

Not just that, he makes the erroneous implicit assertion that crime is somehow a product of big urban areas. A quick look at US, UK and Canadian (especially Canada where there is almost an anti correlation), will show that is just ridiculous. The US and UK do follow the pattern somewhat, but it is hardly a rule (NY has a murder rate which is just above the US average).

I almost thought the video was tongue and cheek, but there is no punch line.
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