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juniper
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Joined: 22 Oct 2004
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Location: EU
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 Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | I'd rather send them to the DPRK where the government doesn't allow such risky freedoms. |
some countries in between freedomland and DPRK. |
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juniper
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Joined: 22 Oct 2004
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Location: EU
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | This anti-gun propaganda and scare tactics are not going to stop until all the authoritarian leftists are rounded up and put in camps (for their own safety of course, in like "gun-free, environmentally-friendly neighborhoods", with 20-foot razor-wire fences around them).
We could call them "LAST CAMPS" (Libertarians Against State Terrorism: Collectivist-Aggregating Maternally Protective Spaces"). |
ok. you are a freedomlovinggunnut and I am a freedomlovingantigun guy.
What about a compromise? You know that it is relatively easy to get a gun in canada. there are criminal checks done, references obtained and waiting period, but you can get one quite easily (takes 4-6 weeks though). How about that? also, you could limit it to hand guns and rifles. |
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dmitchell
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Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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While it's possible tighter gun laws could have prevented this, I don't really see the relevance of gun laws except that they worked as intended (he failed to purchase a gun). What happened is that his mother left her guns where he could find them. What law is going to stop that?
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pjp
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Joined: 16 Apr 2002
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Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | What about a compromise? You know that it is relatively easy to get a gun in canada. there are criminal checks done, references obtained and waiting period, but you can get one quite easily (takes 4-6 weeks though). How about that? |
We already have that (I don't recall the waiting period, which is largely pointless beyond a few days / once the background check is complete). I'd also eliminate the felony limitation. Committing a real crime with a firearm would be reasonable rather than just all felons (and simple possession shouldn't qualify).
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big dave
n00b
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 0
Location: land of first world problems
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | This anti-gun propaganda and scare tactics are not going to stop until all the authoritarian leftists are rounded up and put in camps (for their own safety of course, in like "gun-free, environmentally-friendly neighborhoods", with 20-foot razor-wire fences around them).
We could call them "LAST CAMPS" (Libertarians Against State Terrorism: Collectivist-Aggregating Maternally Protective Spaces"). |
ok. you are a freedomlovinggunnut and I am a freedomlovingantigun guy.
What about a compromise? You know that it is relatively easy to get a gun in canada. there are criminal checks done, references obtained and waiting period, but you can get one quite easily (takes 4-6 weeks though). How about that? also, you could limit it to hand guns and rifles. |
actually, we're going to follow the nanny state approach. every male the age of 16-55 is going to undergo random "happy-checkups" to verify that each male is not disgruntled. because you may change your happiness level at any time, and it's subject to change when you know that the mental health improvement officials are on the way to give you a happy checkup, these mental health improvement officials will just be quartered in your home. if you cannot afford a separate room, they will just share your bed with you. don't worry, you can trust these guys. they're all former TSA agents who are well skilled in their field, because we know the TSA is the paragon of government success. |
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wildhorse
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 148
Location: Estados Unidos De América
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| LOL USA |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16029
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | everywhere is down. |
Right, I got that. Everywhere is down, regardless of their gun laws.
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sikpuppy
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Joined: 12 Jun 2012
Posts: 23
Location: Central Coast, NSW
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| eeyrjmr wrote: | | sikpuppy wrote: | | eeyrjmr wrote: | http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/12/14/1337551/michigan-guns-classroom/?mobile=nc
Allowing concealed weapons in schools is something I support. Its going to be interesting in the coming weeks if the Gov veto's this |
You do? Really? Fucking hell. That's insane. |
Answer me this. Accepting the fact that there is a right to bear arms and to legally aquire a gun is only slightly harder than getting a drivers license, if a select number of teachers were armed at the school in Conn, how many murders would have occured?
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-WBRqBzLdjDI/UMwAk8jyIuI/AAAAAAAAEEc/phXp_lrahDU/s423/n.jpg |
Probably more, over time. Teachers with guns? Why not just have the military teach all kids while wearing full kit? Geez louise. |
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notageek
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 78
Location: Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | Like a new one wouldn't? |
In a different, more enjoyable way.
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genstorm
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 2241
Location: Austria
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | While it's possible tighter gun laws could have prevented this, I don't really see the relevance of gun laws except that they worked as intended (he failed to purchase a gun). What happened is that his mother left her guns where he could find them. What law is going to stop that? |
Nothing is going to prevent that, except less guns overall. The pure availability of guns (legal most of the time, or illegal) gives you more rampages, and raises the death toll. Pro-gun people need to openly admit that they want to keep things going the way they are at any sacrifice of innocents, be it kids. Unless you are batshit insane like some GOPers and think prayers will help.
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juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 756
Location: EU
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | everywhere is down. |
Right, I got that. Everywhere is down, regardless of their gun laws. |
I don't think you got it. f'(x) < 0 everywhere, but f(x) is high in the US. I am talking about that. |
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juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
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Location: EU
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| genstorm wrote: | | dmitchell wrote: | | While it's possible tighter gun laws could have prevented this, I don't really see the relevance of gun laws except that they worked as intended (he failed to purchase a gun). What happened is that his mother left her guns where he could find them. What law is going to stop that? |
Nothing is going to prevent that, except less guns overall. The pure availability of guns (legal most of the time, or illegal) gives you more rampages, and raises the death toll. Pro-gun people need to openly admit that they want to keep things going the way they are at any sacrifice of innocents, be it kids. Unless you are batshit insane like some GOPers and think prayers will help. |
My impression is that if you think really hard about a gun in the US, it just materializes out of thin air. It's that easy to get a gun there. Yes, the system is flooded with guns. Some people use them to do bad things. Not rocket science.
And there is the answer to Dmitchel's question. Prevent the woman from having a gun. |
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juniper
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Joined: 22 Oct 2004
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Location: EU
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| big dave wrote: |
actually, we're going to follow the nanny state approach. every male the age of 16-55 is going to undergo random "happy-checkups" to verify that each male is not disgruntled. because you may change your happiness level at any time, and it's subject to change when you know that the mental health improvement officials are on the way to give you a happy checkup, these mental health improvement officials will just be quartered in your home. if you cannot afford a separate room, they will just share your bed with you. don't worry, you can trust these guys. they're all former TSA agents who are well skilled in their field, because we know the TSA is the paragon of government success. |
I don't need a nanny state. I am not going to get a gun and shoot up a primary school. But clearly some people do need it. |
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wildhorse
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 148
Location: Estados Unidos De América
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| sikpuppy wrote: | | Probably more, over time. Teachers with guns? Why not just have the military teach all kids while wearing full kit? Geez louise. |
You just don't understand the logic of balancing insanity in the USA. The problem is not that the guy was able to use his mother's Bushmaster. After all, she was a school teacher. No, the problem is that the other teachers did not fulfill their duty!
Any word from the NRA, or are they still waiting for the facts?
The same day as Connecticut gun rampage, Oklahoma student was caught plotting mass shooting |
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mcgruff
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Joined: 28 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/16/newtown-shooting-america-gun-laws-failed-again
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Newtown shooting: when it comes to guns and violence, America is like a failed state
In Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness the character of Kurtz, at his life's end, has a moment of profound lucidity, which prompts his last words: "The horror."
This weekend in the wake of the latest terrible mass shooting in the US, at a primary school in Connecticut, which claimed the lives of 27 innocent people including 20 children, a similar public mood appears to have taken hold, given its most powerful expression in the moving speech by a President Barack Obama on the edge of tears.
It is early days yet but the first indications are that the Newtown massacre has inspired a rare moment of national self-reflection over what is obvious to outside observers: that gun control in the US has failed with horrific consequences.
In a single year – as Obama articulated – the US has also seen mass killings at a Sikh temple, a shopping mall and a cinema.
In America in the past 40 years, a right-driven agenda has argued for the privatisation of the individual's right to own the means of the use of lethal force and driven an extraordinary proliferation of small arms.
While it is clear that the US cannot be described as a failed state, in this one crucial aspect, however, it does demonstrate the traits of one. Indeed, Americans own twice as many guns per head as unstable Yemen, the country that has the second highest rate of firearm ownership on the planet.
At the heart of the issue has been a deliberate effort by the gun lobby and the US right, beginning in earnest in the mid-1970s, to redefine the second amendment of the US constitution and recast a provision designed to provide collective defence in the shape of "well-regulated" militias as a modern and absolute individual right.
That process reached its conclusion when a conservative-dominated supreme court passed two recent rulings affirming this meaning.
What is paradoxical about all this, as the historian Jill Lepore made clear in her excellent examination of gun control for the New Yorker earlier this year, is that the proportion of Americans owning guns has been in a steady and significant decline.
Indeed, between 1985 and 2010 the prevalence of gun ownership has declined from roughly a third of Americans owning a gun to barely 20%. Yet despite that, the US, by number of guns, remains the most heavily armed in the world with one weapon for almost every citizen, not least because those who do own guns now tend to have multiple weapons.
In other words, gun ownership, in political terms, has for long been a minority issue in the US, with those who do own firearms – by and large being white, older and male – monopolising a national debate.
All of which suggests that Obama has been presented with a historic opportunity, should he choose to grasp it. In the outpouring of anguish and horror over the Newtown shooting one is reminded of the public reaction in the UK to Hungerford and Dunblane, which saw two significant and incremental changes to gun laws in the UK, the first banning semi-automatic weapons and the second widespread ownership of handguns.
For most outside observers the answer to America's gun problem appears self-evident. It needs to begin with a reinstatement of the ban on ownership of military assault weapons that have no business being in private hands. A proper federal system of regulation, including background checks registration, and limits on the type and number of weapons an individual can own, would bring the US belatedly into line with other civilised countries, as would a determined push back against state legislation allowing the carrying of concealed weapons in public.
The rate of death from firearm injuries in the US, put very crudely, at more than 30,000 a year exceeds the annual death rate in the present war in Syria. Until the US confronts the reality of its failed policies regarding ownership of firearms it will live in a recurrent nightmare where it is condemned to confront the same horror as it did on Friday at Sandy Hook elementary school.
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big dave
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Joined: 03 Jul 2009
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Location: land of first world problems
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | | heavy-handed, short-sighted, nanny-state drivel |
i don't see you crying out for the 53 who died in the last 2 weeks from crazy people who live in mud huts and can't go to the corner store to buy materials. assuming a gun ban actually was successful in stopping bad people from getting guns (because drug prohibition, and laws that say you can't kill people both clearly work so well), what are you going to do when they start blowing people up with bombs they can make from things you can buy at walmart? and if you don't think they'll succeed at making these bombs, there are 53 dead and many more maimed in just the last 2 weeks, who clearly disagree with you.
seriously, do an assumption analysis on this, and tell me how a gun ban is supposed to be effective. |
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genstorm
Advocate
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 2241
Location: Austria
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| big dave wrote: | | assuming a gun ban actually was successful in stopping bad people from getting guns (because drug prohibition, and laws that say you can't kill people both clearly work so well), what are you going to do when they start blowing people up with bombs they can make from things you can buy at walmart? and if you don't think they'll succeed at making these bombs, there are 53 dead and many more maimed in just the last 2 weeks, who clearly disagree with you. |
Again, to you:
1) Most guns used in rampages were perfectly legal according to your laws
2) You can't grow guns in your backyard, someone has to build them
3) How come I can't remember the last bomb assault in my gun regulation country?
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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Time and again, all serious, truly rigorous analysis shows there is no evidence that gun control works at all. People have their cherry-picked arguments, but as we have discussed in here before, serious analysis has repeatedly shown no statistically significant correlations between gun laws and homicide rates or violence rates. (I personally believe gun control probably reduces fatalities due to violent crime, but the statistics globally do not support this.)
Incidents like this are always given the spotlight, eclipsing the facts that violent crime is a sociological problem more closely associated with at least a dozen other variables, and that in the developed countries of the West, including the U.S., it continues to fall to lower and lower levels.
"ZOMG Noe!! Teh Sky is Falling!! Guns r bad m'kay?!" <--- ignorant puppets of authoritarianism, helping the state to take away what little real power the people still have to protect their rights. And if you're from a "Jews in the attic" country, I don't even want to hear it.
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genstorm
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Location: Austria
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | Time and again, all serious, truly rigorous analysis shows there is no evidence that gun control works at all. |
The fact that you have 47 times higher gun murder rates than UK (taking into account higher population) doesn't make you suspicious?  Or do you just settle with a deep belief that US society is fundamentally flawed?
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| genstorm wrote: | | 3) How come I can't remember the last bomb assault in my gun regulation country? |
Because your society is still wallowing in guilt and shame from WWII, and people tend to act out in private ways, like fucking their daughters in bondage for 20 years in their basements, and you know I'm right.
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big dave
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Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 0
Location: land of first world problems
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| genstorm wrote: | | big dave wrote: | | assuming a gun ban actually was successful in stopping bad people from getting guns (because drug prohibition, and laws that say you can't kill people both clearly work so well), what are you going to do when they start blowing people up with bombs they can make from things you can buy at walmart? and if you don't think they'll succeed at making these bombs, there are 53 dead and many more maimed in just the last 2 weeks, who clearly disagree with you. |
Again, to you:
1) Most guns used in rampages were perfectly legal according to your laws
2) You can't grow guns in your backyard, someone has to build them
3) How come I can't remember the last bomb assault in my gun regulation country? |
these are talking points, and not an assumption analysis. have you ever played chess before? you're playing like a 4 year old right now. |
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genstorm
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Location: Austria
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| big dave wrote: | | genstorm wrote: | | big dave wrote: | | assuming a gun ban actually was successful in stopping bad people from getting guns (because drug prohibition, and laws that say you can't kill people both clearly work so well), what are you going to do when they start blowing people up with bombs they can make from things you can buy at walmart? and if you don't think they'll succeed at making these bombs, there are 53 dead and many more maimed in just the last 2 weeks, who clearly disagree with you. |
Again, to you:
1) Most guns used in rampages were perfectly legal according to your laws
2) You can't grow guns in your backyard, someone has to build them
3) How come I can't remember the last bomb assault in my gun regulation country? |
these are talking points, and not an assumption analysis. have you ever played chess before? you're playing like a 4 year old right now. |
Your unability to counter with facts is duly noted.
I pity your foolishness - but at the same time I don't want to invest above reasonable time discussing your problems.
So, looking again at that first citation above, what you basically say is that US americans have some deeply embedded lust for blood, that they will satisfy no matter what gun law is in place. Even US-haters would find such reasoning ridiculous.
| BoneKracker wrote: | | genstorm wrote: | | 3) How come I can't remember the last bomb assault in my gun regulation country? |
Because your society is still wallowing in guilt and shame from WWII |
Nope, that would be the Germans. Austrians enjoyed all the glory of being freed by our friends, the allies, who immediately declared us victims of the evil nazi regime. And we lived happily ever after.
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big dave
n00b
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 0
Location: land of first world problems
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| genstorm wrote: | | big dave wrote: | | genstorm wrote: | | big dave wrote: | | assuming a gun ban actually was successful in stopping bad people from getting guns (because drug prohibition, and laws that say you can't kill people both clearly work so well), what are you going to do when they start blowing people up with bombs they can make from things you can buy at walmart? and if you don't think they'll succeed at making these bombs, there are 53 dead and many more maimed in just the last 2 weeks, who clearly disagree with you. |
Again, to you:
1) Most guns used in rampages were perfectly legal according to your laws
2) You can't grow guns in your backyard, someone has to build them
3) How come I can't remember the last bomb assault in my gun regulation country? |
these are talking points, and not an assumption analysis. have you ever played chess before? you're playing like a 4 year old right now. |
Your unability to counter with facts is duly noted.
I pity your foolishness - but at the same time I don't want to invest above reasonable time discussing your problems.
So, looking again at that first citation above, what you basically say is that US americans have some deeply embedded lust for blood, that they will satisfy no matter what gun law is in place. Even US-haters would find such reasoning ridiculous. |
you're still playing chess like a 4 year old.
assumption analysis is commonly used by the largest corporations on the planet. let me walk you through it. what do you think the problem is?
i think we've already established that your solution is to ban guns. so what problem are you trying to solve by banning guns?
Last edited by big dave on Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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aidanjt
Veteran
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Rep. of Ireland
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| genstorm wrote: | | The fact that you have 47 times higher gun murder rates than UK (taking into account higher population) doesn't make you suspicious? Or do you just settle with a deep belief that US society is fundamentally flawed? |
The British more than make up for it in stabbings and other violent killings. Banning weapons doesn't solve the social problems which cause the inflamation of violence in the first place.
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| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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mcgruff
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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I'd ask how many f*cking massacres does it take before right-wing fantasists will wake up to their inhuman beliefs but the answer is these gibbering, evil idiots never will. I'm done talking. Just give me a steamroller and I'll run them all over, guns and all.
The US of Arms would be the laughing stock of the world except it's just not funny.
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