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grey_dot
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:30 am    Post subject: Gentoo developers incompetence Reply with quote

At the moment there are many bugs in gentoo bugzilla that are not payed enough attention. Some of them are relatively trivial like a version bump request (https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=442108), others are both trivial and very annoying (https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=438758). Most of the bug reports already include solutions provided by users, yet devs do not use it for some reason I do not know. What the hell is going on? It seems that those people just can't into the job they volunteered to do. The other problem is that it is kinda hard to get the developer status to fix all this crap.

I'd really like to know your opinion on this, people. Discuss.
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Hypnos
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since drobbins left the bugs that get love are the ones devs are interested in. Your first example is a bump of a not-very-widely known package.

In these situations I have found the best solution is to be a proxy maintainer, or just use an overlay where there is more enthusiasm for your favorite packages. (Unfortunately for you, the PDA overlay seems dead.)

Finally, is it that hard to become a full-fledged developer? Just approach an existing developer with an action plan of what you want to accomplish, and see if they like it.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Opening a rude thread like this will not help, that's for sure.
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consus
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Opening a rude thread like this will not help, that's for sure.

Admit it, he has a point.
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grey_dot
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Opening a rude thread like this will not help, that's for sure.


sorry for not kowtowing to everyone [Mod edit for language. — JRG], but this bias is really annoying.
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aCOSwt
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Gentoo developers incompetence Reply with quote

grey_dot wrote:
I'd really like to know your opinion on this, people. Discuss.

Is that really what you'd like to know ?

Well... OK then... here you are :

1/ I understand easily how much you might have been personally disappointed by the not-that-much favorable welcome received by your recent initiative with the udev fork.

2/ Now, this being said... Honestly... There MUST be other ways to word your (legitimate) disappointment than generalizing incompetence to Gentoo developers from a couple of forgotten things you just fell on !

Friendly said grey_dot : Generalize ? You'll always be wrong ! Particularize, find the appropriate people to talk to... you can be correct ! And things will move on !

Oh come on grey_dot ! What you have shown us on this forum until now is worth much much more than what you disgracefully show now with this thread ! Don't ruin it yourself ! :twisted:
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Gentoo developers incompetence Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:

1/ I understand easily how much you might have been personally disappointed by the not-that-much favorable welcome received by your recent initiative with the udev fork.

Udev has nothing to do with it. Taking the project failure or success personally is a bad idea, you should know it.

aCOSwt wrote:

2/ Now, this being said... Honestly... There MUST be other ways to word your (legitimate) disappointment than generalizing incompetence to Gentoo developers from a couple of forgotten things you just fell on !


If there was just a couple of things, I wouldn't have written this post in the first place. There are a lot of things to be done, a lot of drooling around, and yet no action. That's the major cause of my disappointment, not a single missing ebuild.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Opening a rude thread like this will not help, that's for sure.


There are two kind of incompetence, at least in the french language.

Positive incompetence: you infringue on the area of someone else expertise.
Negative incompetence: someone does not fully practice its own expertise.

So nothing rude in the title :)
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The worst bug is this: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=421839

Apparently the developers don't care about this because you can still install Gentoo using SystemRescueCd. But since SystemRescueCd isn't even mentioned in the Gentoo Handbook, we are probably loosing a lot of new users.
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aCOSwt
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jimmy Jazz wrote:
_empty_

My opinion on this one is that you could have just put an empty post just in order to display your sig !
I find it definitely appropriate here.

BTW... even in French, well... especially in French, incompetence is always... used with a strong derogative meaning !
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperTek wrote:
The worst bug is this: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=421839

Really? I think not. Actually, it is going to be solved soon it seems, and anyway: People who are still on ppc might be competent enough to find themselves any Linux bootcd from which to install Gentoo. The importance of the Gentoo LiveCD is debatable; if you think the Gentoo Handbook should be amended for the case of trouble with the installation medium and provide alternatives, go forward and open a bug about it with suggestions.

Jimmy Jazz wrote:
There are two kind of incompetence, at least in the french language.

That's funny, because I can only read the thread title in English, in which its meaning is perfectly clear.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It can not be started a sane discussion with that subject.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jormartr wrote:
It can not be started a sane discussion with that subject.

I'm curious to know what kind of sane discussion you can expect in whatever topic labeled [Whatever_Collective][Whatever_Quality] :?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jormartr wrote:
It can not be started a sane discussion with that subject.


Why?

SuperTek wrote:

The worst bug is this: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=421839


This is bad [Mod edit for language. — JRG]. The bug is blocked by this one (https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=441004), which makes me cry. Again, instead of the fixing the problem with separate /usr in the first place devs try to add a layer of kludges.

genstorm wrote:

Really? I think not. Actually, it is going to be solved soon it seems, and anyway: People who are still on ppc might be competent enough to find themselves any Linux bootcd from which to install Gentoo. The importance of the Gentoo LiveCD is debatable; if you think the Gentoo Handbook should be amended for the case of trouble with the installation medium and provide alternatives, go forward and open a bug about it with suggestions.


Then what is the purpose of gentoo livecd? To show that gentoo dudes are cool and can build their own livecd like ubuntu dudes or fedora dudes or lots of other schoolboys doing it without any issues for years already? Or am I missing something?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
SuperTek wrote:
The worst bug is this: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=421839

Really? I think not. Actually, it is going to be solved soon it seems, and anyway: People who are still on ppc might be competent enough to find themselves any Linux bootcd from which to install Gentoo. The importance of the Gentoo LiveCD is debatable; if you think the Gentoo Handbook should be amended for the case of trouble with the installation medium and provide alternatives, go forward and open a bug about it with suggestions.


Yep, last time I installed gentoo, it was on a UEFI machine and ended up using Ubuntu to install. The only particularly annoying part was the need to manually enter the mirror names rather than being able to use mirrorselect.

As for barry's version bump, an ebuild is included that you could dump into a custom overlay. It's usually not terribly difficult to roll your own ebuild expecially when you have a prior version as a template to go off of.

The devs have to prioritize their time and I think end result if pretty damn good even considering all the small kinks and minor annoyances.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WorBlux wrote:

As for barry's version bump, an ebuild is included that you could dump into a custom overlay. It's usually not terribly difficult to roll your own ebuild expecially when you have a prior version as a template to go off of.


It was me who uploaded that ebuild. Sure I can use my private overlay (I actually do it), but what about others? You want every dude needing a new version to create his own private overlay?

WorBlux wrote:

The devs have to prioritize their time and I think end result if pretty damn good even considering all the small kinks and minor annoyances.


Uploading a new ebuild takes a minute. Maybe two. Really.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@grey_dot, check your PMs, please.

- John
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@genstorm aCOSwt

Don't take it too personally please. The post was about barry ebuild not very well maintained. Never mind the title. If you want to take it softly, better it is.

Jimmy Jazz wrote:
That's funny, because I can only read the thread title in English, in which its meaning is perfectly clear.


Are you sure? it was in US English and the word 'incompetence' has not the meaning of 'incapable'. Also, incapable is another French word. French and English history is very tight together.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"incompetence" can mean a) "I have no idea what I am doing" or b) "Can't do it, it ain't my responsibility.".
- Obviously most people understand (a), even if (b) was meant. (me included.)

On topic: Yes, such bugs are annoying, but really no big deal.
And for the LiveCD/DVD: Yes. Their purpose is to show how cool we Gentooers are. Everybody around here. And what a great linux distro Gentoo is. For installation of Gentoo you'd use anything ... else.
- And that's the evil part, it effects the (minimal) install CDs as well. Blimey.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Really? I think not. Actually, it is going to be solved soon it seems, and anyway: People who are still on ppc might be competent enough to find themselves any Linux bootcd from which to install Gentoo. The importance of the Gentoo LiveCD is debatable; if you think the Gentoo Handbook should be amended for the case of trouble with the installation medium and provide alternatives, go forward and open a bug about it with suggestions.



This bug IS a huge problem. If you read the comments in bugzilla you will see that it doesn't affect only ppc and the fact is that Gentoo is loosing new users for months while developers pretend we don't have a problem. And not only the "incompetent" users but also the "competent" ones. After all, why would someone install a distribution for the first time when the livecd is as broken as it is? Most people would just try another distribution.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not a "worst bug" example - there is much activity and a solution already in sight. That it did not work for some time is bad; however I suspect that for Gentooers it is less a challenge to deal with a malfunctioning install medium as it is for consumers of popular binary distros.

One search in the forums or some wiki and you will find n topics about alternative methods and discs to install Gentoo.

Jimmy Jazz wrote:
Don't take it too personally please. The post was about barry ebuild not very well maintained. Never mind the title. If you want to take it softly, better it is.

I don't think anyone is taking anything personal so far. ;) Still, this thread is all about the title, with the barry ebuild just serving as an example.


Now, to the original topic:
grey_dot wrote:
Some of them are relatively trivial like a version bump request (https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=442108)

The ebuild you provide in that bug is not detected as a text file. Also, you should submit any modifications to ebuilds as unified diffs. Since you are already using it, and apparently are motivated to get it into the tree, you could at least provide a positive remark about successful build/test/usage whatever. And no, bumping an ebuild for a dev is not simply rename+commit without any closer look - the path to Gentoo Dev status should make sure this is understood.

grey_dot wrote:
others are both trivial and very annoying (https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=438758).

That particular package suffers from inactive maintainers it seems. Before starting a rant, first thing I'd do after a bump or bugfix request has grown some beard is get into touch with the devs in IRC and ask around, politely.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo is an open source project, if you want to help fix the bugs that volunteers haven't had chance to get to yet, you can read here about helping out.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crooksey wrote:
Gentoo is an open source project, if you want to help fix the bugs that volunteers haven't had chance to get to yet, you can read here about helping out.

Don't say that to grey_dot. He certainly does not deserve this standard comment.

grey_dot has actually tried hard helping the Gentoo community in a recent past.

Only his communication skills are questionable ? / debatable ? / blamable ?. Certainly not his will to help.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well he clearly missed this part

And most specifically:

Quote:


  • Be nice and respectful of everybody - even if they are bombarding you with messages.
  • Do not abuse or discriminate users or developers - whether as a joke or as sarcasm.
  • Be nice and respectful of everybody - even if they are asking the most unimaginable questions. Either voice your opinion courteously, or voice no opinion.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is an open secret that we are short staffed. These kinds of things are the consequence.

In the case of bug #442108, dirty-epic is on the toolchain team, which siphons much of his time from other packages. I pinged ssuominen in IRC about it, but he not feeling well, so I don't expect him to do anything about it right away. With that said, developers usually like to test version bumps to verify that they are working. Since few of us have appropriate hardware for testing, bugs involving hardware some times live in the bug tracker for quite some time. I imagine that is what happened with that bug.

bug #421839 is a fairly complicated issue and unfortunately, it had been assigned to the wrong team. I have reassigned it to the right time.

As for bug #438758, it appears to be missing the PATCH keyword, which probably prevented the apache maintainers from looking at it sooner. They are likely as overwhelmed with bug mail as the rest of us. I have added the correct keyword and asked one of the apache maintainers to look at it. In the future, it would be a good idea to add the PATCH keyword when you provide a patch. Many of us are overwhelmed with bug mail and it is not always easy to pick out bugs where people have provided patches when the proper keyword is not used.
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