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SuperTek
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ryao wrote:
It is an open secret that we are short staffed. These kinds of things are the consequence.

In the case of bug #442108, dirty-epic is on the toolchain team, which siphons much of his time from other packages. I pinged ssuominen in IRC about it, but he not feeling well, so I don't expect him to do anything about it right away. With that said, developers usually like to test version bumps to verify that they are working. Since few of us have appropriate hardware for testing, bugs involving hardware some times live in the bug tracker for quite some time. I imagine that is what happened with that bug.

bug #421839 is a fairly complicated issue and unfortunately, it had been assigned to the wrong team. I have reassigned it to the right time.

As for bug #438758, it appears to be missing the PATCH keyword, which probably prevented the apache maintainers from looking at it sooner. They are likely as overwhelmed with bug mail as the rest of us. I have added the correct keyword and asked one of the apache maintainers to look at it. In the future, it would be a good idea to add the PATCH keyword when you provide a patch. Many of us are overwhelmed with bug mail and it is not always easy to pick out bugs where people have provided patches when the proper keyword is not used.



Thank you for the thoughtful answer.

I am actually interested in becoming a Gentoo developer but right now I don't have enough knowledge. Perhaps I'll try to in a couple of months.
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ryao
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperTek wrote:
I am actually interested in becoming a Gentoo developer but right now I don't have enough knowledge. Perhaps I'll try to in a couple of months.


http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=1&chap=2
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swimmer
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks indeed ryao for this elaborated & down to earth reply ... now it's up to grey_dot to show some social competence ;-) (if he has the voice to do so of course)
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ryao wrote:
It is an open secret that we are short staffed.

How long has that been the cry, though? 4 years or so now? It's self-inflicted. Gentoo has a *LOT* of highly talented users that Gentoo's excessively bureaucratic governance is acting to exclude.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
ryao wrote:
It is an open secret that we are short staffed.

How long has that been the cry, though? 4 years or so now? It's self-inflicted. Gentoo has a *LOT* of highly talented users that Gentoo's excessively bureaucratic governance is acting to exclude.


I second this. Several weeks ago, right after virtual/udev was introduced consus tried to volunteer to maintain a ebuild for our udev fork in the main portage tree, but he was told to stick to sunrise project first so he could gain status in the gentoo community.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
Gentoo has a *LOT* of highly talented users

This is true !
aidanjt wrote:
that Gentoo's excessively bureaucratic governance is acting to exclude.

This is totally wrong !

About the latter :

As users, aren't we happy that Gentoo promotes high standards ?
What is the cost to pay for these standards ? => Only those who are well aware of them can commit ! Period !

It is a fact that ANY organization excludes.
ANY time you define a set of something, you automatically exclude... the rest.
It has already well been demonstrated that even organizations which aim to regroup those who are excluded, exclude as well.

BUT LOOK ! PLEASE LOOK ! PLEASE TRY before stating what you state absolutely gratuitously :

Gentoo, as an organization, does provide unique tools to promote, help, regroup ALL THOSE it, as an organization, excludes.

What's this ? : Oh well... Gentoo sunrise project is one, Gentoo proxy-maintainers project is another one. (Thank you Hypnos for having suggested that)

I personally find this absolutely fantastic from an organizational standpoint (and purely mathematical standpoint as well) to consider an organization which, internally feeds internal projects aiming to the integration of those initially excluded by the definition of the organization itself.

Where is the problem then ? That your work is recorded under maintainer-wanted when you would like it to be recorded under you real name ?
Oh... come on ! Are you sure you are willing to help ?
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consus
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:

It is a fact that ANY organization excludes.
ANY time you define a set of something, you automatically exclude... the rest.


Oh, cut the crap. If anyone is willing to help he has to go through a lot of insane checks and gain some "status". It's not a good position in a situation like "oh my god we short on staff".
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ssuominen
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: Gentoo developers incompetence Reply with quote

grey_dot wrote:
At the moment there are many bugs in gentoo bugzilla that are not payed enough attention. Some of them are relatively trivial like a version bump request (https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=442108), others are both trivial and very annoying (https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=438758). Most of the bug reports already include solutions provided by users, yet devs do not use it for some reason I do not know. What the hell is going on? It seems that those people just can't into the job they volunteered to do. The other problem is that it is kinda hard to get the developer status to fix all this crap.

I'd really like to know your opinion on this, people. Discuss.


*barry-0.18.3 (17 Dec 2012)

17 Dec 2012; Samuli Suominen <ssuominen@gentoo.org> +barry-0.18.3.ebuild,
metadata.xml:
Version bump wrt #442108 by "grey dot"

I don't have hardware to properly test barry, so I trust users will report bugs if 0.18.3 has packaging faults. As for the apache bug, that one I'm not going to touch.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And this bug...

Quote:

As for the apache bug, that one I'm not going to touch.


Christophe Vidal wrote:

This archive contains the latest updates of patches that can be applied to solve this bug.
Two repositories have to be modified: gentoo-apache and portage.


For god's sake, people. All you need to do is apply these patches. Is that _SO_ hard for you?


Last edited by consus on Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: Gentoo developers incompetence Reply with quote

ssuominen wrote:

*barry-0.18.3 (17 Dec 2012)

17 Dec 2012; Samuli Suominen <ssuominen@gentoo.org> +barry-0.18.3.ebuild,
metadata.xml:
Version bump wrt #442108 by "grey dot"

I don't have hardware to properly test barry, so I trust users will report bugs if 0.18.3 has packaging faults. As for the apache bug, that one I'm not going to touch.


Please check and reply to the comment I left in the bug.
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ssuominen
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

consus wrote:
And this bug...

Quote:

As for the apache bug, that one I'm not going to touch.


Christophe Vidal wrote:

This archive contains the latest updates of patches that can be applied to solve this bug.
Two repositories have to be modified: gentoo-apache and portage.


For god's sake, people. All you need to do is apply these patches. Is that _SO_ hard for you?


You could do that 24 hours, 7 days a week all time around Portage with, and different packages. The work is neverending, so why should this one get the special attention it needs when there are other thousands of bugs open too?

If the package is that important to you, aim to become a developer and maintain the package.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

consus wrote:
For god's sake, people. All you need to do is apply these patches. Is that _SO_ hard for you?


These packages are used on hundreds of thousands of systems. Do you really think it's a good idea to just apply a patch and release the patched package? Do you even grasp what implications a bug in the patch could mean?

By the way, nobody keeps you from creating your local ebuild with the patch applied. Takes not more than five minutes to create, and you don't need to come ranting in the forums.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
As users, aren't we happy that Gentoo promotes high standards ?

That's the thing, Gentoo *doesn't* have high standards, in fact QA still sucks as bad as ever. Brain damaged screwups are still pushed onto the tree far too frequently.

aCOSwt wrote:
What's this ? : Oh well... Gentoo sunrise project is one,

Oh come on, even that has obtuse formal commit access process, all that effort for a tree *nobody* overlays.

aCOSwt wrote:
Gentoo proxy-maintainers project is another one. (Thank you Hypnos for having suggested that)

Even more ridiculously obtuse formal *indirect* commit access which requires not an inconsiderable amount of brown nosing.

aCOSwt wrote:
Where is the problem then ? That your work is recorded under maintainer-wanted when you would like it to be recorded under you real name ?
Oh... come on ! Are you sure you are willing to help ?

I couldn't give a shit who gets credit, I just don't want to be wasting months to years of my time jerking around, having to scale the ivory tower, simply to get one or two problems which happen to affect me fixed, and/or not having to fiddle with personal local overlays like it's some kind of amateurish comical joke of a distro. Frankly, I have better things to be doing with my time, that's the entire purpose of a computer, to save time, this, is the antithesis of that all important strive for greater efficiency.

People's willingness to help others fix problems wanes inversely with the progression of time and difficulty, and when all the difficulty is in trying to hack through months of red tape and cloistered/uncooperative development, interest just drops off the cliff. It's a poor value proposition where the user puts in the time and effort developing the fix, then spending at least ten times that affecting that fix for everyone's benefit, and at best he might get a kudos from a friendly developer (and yes, I know they do actually exist) in return. It's insane, it's exclusionary, it's anti-community, and it's wholly unnecessary, the means are readily available for much more open inclusive development methodologies. The only reason those community human resources and the means to coordinate haven't been exploited is simple, the dudes in the ivory tower *don't want to*, because that would lessen their status and import.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssuominen wrote:
If the package is that important to you, aim to become a developer and maintain the package.

Yes, because spending months to years engaging in political brown-nosing to curry favour with developers instead of actually fixing the package is such an efficient use of time.
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consus
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lxg wrote:
consus wrote:
For god's sake, people. All you need to do is apply these patches. Is that _SO_ hard for you?


These packages are used on hundreds of thousands of systems. Do you really think it's a good idea to just apply a patch and release the patched package? Do you even grasp what implications a bug in the patch could mean?

By the way, nobody keeps you from creating your local ebuild with the patch applied. Takes not more than five minutes to create, and you don't need to come ranting in the forums.


Yeah, right. Possible bugs in trivial patches (for ebuild and init-scripts only by the way) is a good reason not to fix already existing bugs. Are you drunk?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem here is that there are limited developer resources, and (ostensibly) no one has the power to allocate them towards tasks critical for maintaining Gentoo mindshare. Few care about barry; apache is a different story.

The voting system on bugs.gentoo.org is a start, but does anyone have the authority to actually assign developers to up-voted bugs?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:
The problem here is that there are limited developer resources, and (ostensibly) no one has the power to allocate them towards tasks critical for maintaining Gentoo mindshare. Few care about barry; apache is a different story.

The voting system on bugs.gentoo.org is a start, but does anyone have the authority to actually assign developers to up-voted bugs?


The problem here is people's self-importance and stupidity. And by 'limited developer resources' I suppose you mean their ability to think the consequences of their actions.

The voting system is useless. Just as any other voting system, actually.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssuominen wrote:

You could do that 24 hours, 7 days a week all time around Portage with, and different packages. The work is neverending, so why should this one get the special attention it needs when there are other thousands of bugs open too?


Are you nuts? Are you actually saying 'no, I WILL NOT fix this bug that prevents people from using the essential part of the system because there are other bugs that might need to be fixed and I just don't want to apply a simple set of patches and test for regressions' ?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

grey_dot,

There are indeed thousands of open bugs on b.g.o . Do you have a suggestion for how to prioritize them, and how the system can be changed so developers will actually work on them?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:

There are indeed thousands of open bugs on b.g.o . Do you have a suggestion for how to prioritize them, and how the system can be changed so developers will actually work on them?


I have an idea: how about fixing the damn bug as soon as someone proposes a good fix for it?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

consus wrote:
I have an idea: how about fixing the damn bug as soon as someone proposes a good fix for it?

Someone still has to judge what is a "good fix," and do it promptly. This may involve regression testing, which also takes developer time. This means someone still has to decide what bugs are high priority, and make developers work on them.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:

Someone still has to judge what is a "good fix," and do it promptly. This may involve regression testing, which also takes developer time. This means someone still has to decide what bugs are high priority, and make developers work on them.


I guess the most used web-server in the Net is worth fixing, huh? Or do I have to write a nice clean chart-table with software priorities?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

consus wrote:
I guess the most used web-server in the Net is worth fixing, huh? Or do I have to write a nice clean chart-table with software priorities?

I agree. That's why I see the problem is that no one is in charge of deciding what's important, and keeping after devs to fix them or reassigning bugs if they aren't get fixed.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:

I agree. That's why I see the problem is that no one is in charge of deciding what's important, and keeping after devs to fix them or reassigning bugs if they aren't get fixed.


Don't you think it's terribly wrong that some of the devs have to be constantly poked in the back in order to function properly?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

consus wrote:
Don't you think it's terribly wrong that some of the devs have to be constantly poked in the back in order to function properly?

Yes -- if you are the maintainer of a critical or widely-used package, you have an implicit obligation to make sure (a) you don't break it and (b) bugs are fixed as soon as possible.

Someone has to enforce this, and devs who can't hack it shouldn't be maintaining those packages.
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