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big dave
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:12 pm    Post subject: more crazy people committing mass murders... over 50 dead Reply with quote

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/12/2012121310920586422.html

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=55774

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=55827

that's 3 bombings for a death toll over 50 in only the last 2 weeks. many of the victims were women and children. that's a higher death toll in the last 2 weeks than all US mass murders in all of 2012, and they did it with stuff anyone can buy from your local walmart. but these assassins are living in mud huts. they don't have access to the cleaning supplies aisle in your grocery store. they can't walk down to the local home depot and buy fertilizer. they don't have 20 gas stations within 5 miles where they can buy fuel. and they clearly didn't need guns.

the problem isn't guns. it's crazy people. crazy people will do crazy things. using gun control to stop massacres is like treating a blood disorder by chopping off your hand... sure you feel like you're taking action, but you're doing a lot of damage and you're not solving the problem.

we need societal level changes that make people less crazy... not heavy handed guillotine action.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not "crazy" people. It's frustrated, angry, misguided young men.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

in the 90s, this stuff made headline news in the US. americans have become so desensitized to this that mass murder isn't even on our radar unless it happens in our own schools.

hey mcgruff, don't you care about these 53 people and the survivors who were maimed? how come you're not crying out for them? bombs are already banned, so how did this happen?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More children were killed the same day by people talking on their cell phones while driving. ZOMG! BAN CELL PHONES! \o/
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Re: more crazy people committing mass murders... over 50 dea Reply with quote

big dave wrote:

the problem isn't guns. it's crazy people. crazy people will do crazy things.


and making it easy for crazy people to get guns helps how?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:05 pm    Post subject: Re: more crazy people committing mass murders... over 50 dea Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
big dave wrote:

the problem isn't guns. it's crazy people. crazy people will do crazy things.


and making it easy for crazy people to get guns helps how?

Where did anybody say it should be easy for crazy people to get guns (and we should be specific with our terminology: I think we're talking about psychotics and people with a record of violent crime)?

I don't think we need to ban guns or ban additional types of guns. I think the laws we have are more than restrictive enough. However, one important aspect of gun control has been overlooked, in my opinion: ongoing control. Gun control is not solely about purchase transactions.

People buy guns, then they are given to others, or they are informally inherited, or they are lost and found. What people do with the guns they have legally obtained is an important aspect of gun control. We don't just register cars as the time of purchase and then forget about it, so why do we do that with guns? It doesn't make sense.

Maybe people should be required to periodically update the registration of their firearms. Every two years, say, maybe they should be required to take their firearms over the local firearms safety officer, where it's serial number is checked against the records to prove they are still in possession of the firearm, and it's inspected for basic safety. And, if they can't produce the firearm, they should be fined (like ten times the original purchase price). Maybe they should also have to bring it in with its own trigger lock in place. Maybe they should also be required to take a firearms safety course every ten years.

None of this would further restrict people's ability to possess and legally use firearms, but it would greatly reduce the number of weapons getting into the hands of criminals, the insane, and children. The only danger here is that the government then gets a list of "who has guns" (currently that varies by state but in general nobody keeps track of basic rifles and shotguns), but this could be mitigated by allowing this process to occur at county level and explicitly prohibiting the Federal Government from obtaining or maintaining that personally identifying data.
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big dave
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: more crazy people committing mass murders... over 50 dea Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
None of this would further restrict people's ability to possess and legally use firearms, but it would greatly reduce the number of weapons getting into the hands of criminals, the insane, and children. The only danger here is that the government then gets a list of "who has guns" (currently that varies by state but in general nobody keeps track of basic rifles and shotguns), but this could be mitigated by allowing this process to occur at county level and explicitly prohibiting the Federal Government from obtaining or maintaining that personally identifying data.

do you really trust the government with that info? this is the same government that's run by a guy who said he would oppose telecom immunity for warrantless wiretapping, but instead voted for it, continued it when he got elected, and to this day, still defends warrantless wiretapping in court.

if the government said they're going to clawback all guns, it wouldn't work because it's a REAL lot of work to figure out who has guns, and would still be unreliable... nothing stops you from lying and just hiding the guns until the day they're really needed. but registration eliminates that protection.

they have a proven track record of lying, stealing, and cheating. do you really trust the government to do the right thing?
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then give it to NRA to do at state level according to a standardized process, with the data and systems maintained by one of the big accounting firms.
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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is easy: everybody owning more than one gun/rifle/pistol/whatever is most probably unfit and should have them all taken away.
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AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
it is easy: everybody owning more than one gun/rifle/pistol/whatever is most probably unfit and should have them all taken away.

Try that with me and find out what happens. My two rifles are my property, not yours.
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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
it is easy: everybody owning more than one gun/rifle/pistol/whatever is most probably unfit and should have them all taken away.

Try that with me and find out what happens. My two rifles are my property, not yours.


what would happen? nothing would happen. For simple reasons like you being too drunk to do anything about it. Or as a former marine, you too busy shooting some friends standing nearby.
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AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
it is easy: everybody owning more than one gun/rifle/pistol/whatever is most probably unfit and should have them all taken away.

Oh, come on. I know that with you it's just sour grapes. If it were legal there and you had the cash to spare, you'd be one of the first guys in line for an FN FAL or the like.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:57 am    Post subject: Re: more crazy people committing mass murders... over 50 dea Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
and making it easy for crazy people to get guns helps how?
I'm pretty sure people known to be crazy are not legally allowed to purchase weapons.
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flysideways
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which US mass shootings have been committed by people who had not already earned the attention of mental health professionals or law enforcement?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Then give it to NRA to do at state level according to a standardized process, with the data and systems maintained by one of the big accounting firms.

that worked so well with AT&T...
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:14 am    Post subject: Re: more crazy people committing mass murders... over 50 dea Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Maybe people should be required to periodically update the registration of their firearms. Every two years, say, maybe they should be required to take their firearms over the local firearms safety officer, where it's serial number is checked against the records to prove they are still in possession of the firearm, and it's inspected for basic safety. And, if they can't produce the firearm, they should be fined (like ten times the original purchase price). Maybe they should also have to bring it in with its own trigger lock in place. Maybe they should also be required to take a firearms safety course every ten years.

None of this would further restrict people's ability to possess and legally use firearms, but it would greatly reduce the number of weapons getting into the hands of criminals, the insane, and children. The only danger here is that the government then gets a list of "who has guns" (currently that varies by state but in general nobody keeps track of basic rifles and shotguns), but this could be mitigated by allowing this process to occur at county level and explicitly prohibiting the Federal Government from obtaining or maintaining that personally identifying data.
Am I misremembering you as a proponent of smaller government? I'd prefer less government involvement with vehicles, though there is certainly value in being able to identify a vehicle beyond 'beige Toyota Camry' or similar.

Tracking and registering firearms every 2 yrs won't keep them from others. Theft is still an option. I guess the oppressive monitoring of citizens would inform the TLAs when someone was searching for how and what to strap to themselves. Then we can register internet access with retina scans and in-house video monitoring.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: more crazy people committing mass murders... over 50 dea Reply with quote

big dave wrote:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/12/2012121310920586422.html

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=55774

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=55827

that's 3 bombings for a death toll over 50 in only the last 2 weeks. many of the victims were women and children. that's a higher death toll in the last 2 weeks than all US mass murders in all of 2012, and they did it with stuff anyone can buy from your local walmart. but these assassins are living in mud huts. they don't have access to the cleaning supplies aisle in your grocery store. they can't walk down to the local home depot and buy fertilizer. they don't have 20 gas stations within 5 miles where they can buy fuel. and they clearly didn't need guns.

the problem isn't guns. it's crazy people. crazy people will do crazy things. using gun control to stop massacres is like treating a blood disorder by chopping off your hand... sure you feel like you're taking action, but you're doing a lot of damage and you're not solving the problem.

we need societal level changes that make people less crazy... not heavy handed guillotine action.


Congratulations! the US is safer than Iraq and Syria! Perhaps you guys want a medal? Amongst war torn countries and the US, the US has the lowest death rate! Yay! C-E-L-E-B-R-A-T-I-O-N T-I-M-E!
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: more crazy people committing mass murders... over 50 dea Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:

Maybe people should be required to periodically update the registration of their firearms. Every two years, say, maybe they should be required to take their firearms over the local firearms safety officer, where it's serial number is checked against the records to prove they are still in possession of the firearm, and it's inspected for basic safety. And, if they can't produce the firearm, they should be fined (like ten times the original purchase price). Maybe they should also have to bring it in with its own trigger lock in place. Maybe they should also be required to take a firearms safety course every ten years.

None of this would further restrict people's ability to possess and legally use firearms, but it would greatly reduce the number of weapons getting into the hands of criminals, the insane, and children. The only danger here is that the government then gets a list of "who has guns" (currently that varies by state but in general nobody keeps track of basic rifles and shotguns), but this could be mitigated by allowing this process to occur at county level and explicitly prohibiting the Federal Government from obtaining or maintaining that personally identifying data.


did castro take over your account?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am thinking about becoming a Communist. I figure, "if you can't beat em, join em", "go with the flow", etc. I think I'll make a good Commie (just a closet Commie, mind you, who is externally merely a "progressive"), and that way I'll fit in better and be hip, and I'll have less cognitive dissonance as my society circles the now-flushed toilet bowl of leftist authoritarianism. Maybe it will even lead to a position of status and relative prosperity, like Inner Party membership.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
I am thinking about becoming a Communist. I figure, "if you can't beat em, join em", "go with the flow", etc. I think I'll make a good Commie (just a closet Commie, mind you, who is externally merely a "progressive"), and that way I'll fit in better and be hip, and I'll have less cognitive dissonance as my society circles the now-flushed toilet bowl of leftist authoritarianism. Maybe it will even lead to a position of status and relative prosperity, like Inner Party membership.


Key to survival is to excel within the current paradigm. The way US is going, if you are not a CEO or owner of a corporation, taking an obscure job within government, talking lot of bullshit, and running around corridors with papers in one hand, coffee cup in other, while talking on the phone 8 hours a day is a way to go. Just dress sharply, and look busy. Promotion guaranteed.

Party membership is great. When asked something, talk about eternal problems that will never get solved, like class struggle and inequalities, and digress often into details of how to protect the rights of non-productive members of society.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
I am thinking about becoming a Communist. I figure, "if you can't beat em, join em", "go with the flow", etc. I think I'll make a good Commie (just a closet Commie, mind you, who is externally merely a "progressive"), and that way I'll fit in better and be hip, and I'll have less cognitive dissonance as my society circles the now-flushed toilet bowl of leftist authoritarianism. Maybe it will even lead to a position of status and relative
prosperity, like Inner Party membership.

lol... 'murica is communistic like maggie thatcher.
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you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
Key to survival is to excel within the current paradigm. The way US is going, if you are not a CEO or owner of a corporation, taking an obscure job within government, talking lot of bullshit, and running around corridors with papers in one hand, coffee cup in other, while talking on the phone 8 hours a day is a way to go. Just dress sharply, and look busy. Promotion guaranteed.

Party membership is great. When asked something, talk about eternal problems that will never get solved, like class struggle and inequalities, and digress often into details of how to protect the rights of non-productive members of society.

More importantly, don't come up with specific solutions, or specific anything, just talk endlessly about "moving forward", and the "struggles ahead".
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juniper wrote:
you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
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