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xsi
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:23 pm    Post subject: USB boot: Why emulate CD/build proprietary M$ FS? Nonsense? Reply with quote

1st this:
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/liveusb.xml
(essential question of installation from USB in Linux native way described of course IN OFFICIAL DOCUMENTATION)

Guys, why its so funny and sooo strange, When I need to emulate LiveCD for USB boot, with the requirement to make DOS FS for this? There isn't just a true Linux way in a bleeding edge of technology - a USB Bootable miniature drive, cheap / elegant / easy with rw .. etc, etc, etc (I do wish ext2+)

2nd, btw not less dissappointing thing:
sys-boot/unetbootin fetch consumes

Code:
Total: 11 packages (11 new), Size of downloads: 241,043 kB

It's dissapointing because of amount of bloat (IMHO) / together with not promoting a professional way with command line with specifics (working with fs, working with /dev, utils, linux). Of course in the future I want multiboot in the most elegant way.

And 3rd: I've got a USB with gentoo (was) on it, written with dd (if/of) and isohybrid 'ized. Now the problem is that fdisk cannot simply make a partition/repartition it (after isohybrid). Yes it was working, but net-setup had no write permission (due to cd emulation).

Conclusion: It doesn't matter, I wish ext2 ..etc other way of NORMAL NATIVE WAY. It's tech future on our bleeding edge. Help. Thx :wink:
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vfat is used there because the driver is simpler and smaller. If you don't want to use vfat, just install using extlinux instead of isolinux.

As for the size of unetbootin... convenience isn't free. You have to ask yourself whether installing Qt for the sake of a GUI convenience is a better use of your time than understanding your system, nobody can make that decision for you.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also vfat is default format for usbkey, so many users can just skip the format part of the doc.

I don't see anything wrong with a doc that teach you something and not teach you everything you could do, as long as what it explain works.
Just like the installation handbook suggest
Quote:
Use mke2fs, mke2fs -j, mkreiserfs, mkfs.xfs and mkfs.jfs to create file systems on your Linux partitions
and not all possible fs that exists.

And i would say many users may get on floor reading :
xsi wrote:
It's tech future on our bleeding edge

xsi wrote:
I wish ext2
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xsi
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On finding this:
http://www.gentoo-wiki.info/Live_USB_stick_using_GRUB
(and in the process of following this)

My results differed:
Code:
localhost Downloads # dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdb
dd: writing to ‘/dev/sdb’: No space left on device
15851521+0 records in
15851520+0 records out
8115978240 bytes (8.1 GB) copied, 3362.92 s, 2.4 MB/s
localhost Downloads # fdisk /dev/sdb
Welcome to fdisk (util-linux 2.21.2).

Changes will remain in memory only, until you decide to write them.
Be careful before using the write command.

Device does not contain a recognized partition table
Building a new DOS disklabel with disk identifier 0xfeaa7236.

Command (m for help): o
Building a new DOS disklabel with disk identifier 0x1249c398.

Command (m for help): n,p,1
Partition type:
   p   primary (0 primary, 0 extended, 4 free)
   e   extended
Select (default p): p
Partition number (1-4, default 1): 1
First sector (2048-15851519, default 2048): 200
Value out of range.
First sector (2048-15851519, default 2048):
Using default value 2048
Last sector, +sectors or +size{K,M,G} (2048-15851519, default 15851519): 2248
Partition 1 of type Linux and of size 100.5 KiB is set

Command (m for help): w
The partition table has been altered!

Calling ioctl() to re-read partition table.
Syncing disks.
localhost Downloads # mkfs.ext2 /dev/sdb1
mke2fs 1.42 (29-Nov-2011)
Filesystem label=
OS type: Linux
Block size=1024 (log=0)
Fragment size=1024 (log=0)
Stride=0 blocks, Stripe width=0 blocks
16 inodes, 100 blocks
5 blocks (5.00%) reserved for the super user
First data block=1
1 block group
8192 blocks per group, 8192 fragments per group
16 inodes per group

Allocating group tables: done                           
Writing inode tables: done                           
Writing superblocks and filesystem accounting information: done


Following this document I resulted in 100.5 KiB of Partition 1. Also the fdisk program output differs (2048 start).

If I write this (down the manual):
Code:
mount -t iso9660 -o loop /path/to/your/gentoo-cd-image.iso /mnt/cdimg
Copy the content of the ISO image to the stick:

cp -R /mnt/cdimg/* /mnt/stick

(it wouldn't enough place). Above all
Code:
mount -t iso9660 -o loop install-amd64-minimal-20121107.iso /mnt/cdimg
mount: unknown filesystem type 'iso9660'
As i thrown away CDROM/DVD in the wake of flash and got rid of any surplus mechanics in kernel (9660 dvd fat). I must somehow fulfill the quest withour their support :evil:

And finally "bleeding edge + ext2 edge" - one don't follow from another. They expected to be like tester for not_relation answer disposition in my words arrangement (one can simply notice etc*). On the other hand, such a closeness of those two in the given proposition signified rather the consolidation of potential of being learnable in prospect (As I'm relatively new to ext2, ext4-5.. I don't know the version difference. When I was a child I thought it would be possible to know everything how this works (fat16) etc, unfortunately only later did i released m$ closeness and punishments for it's hacks). Nevertheless you showed yourself with humour, presented this (luckily not as there http://goo.gl/GSLGv) though in such a pleasant way, me also to laugh heartily) and have a big smile)))

---
wanna to remark the Ant's answer, that truly gladdened me , though it's not about code specifics (i.e. bloat specifics) or suggestion of a simple .ebuild script procedure ,like in wiki but auto..
--
And finally I will add: I will fight, I will struggle, I won't give up , in the sake of all the trolls of the Internet (to choose binaries by their advice.. etc d.o.n.t. m.i.n.d.!)). I couldn't sacrifice KNOWLEDGE to have convenience. Let's assume the "full-truth" conception and define it: I have to admit, if one operates the words like /ready-made/nothing-to-do/just-google or just provide a link - you're helpful for kicking another one in the circle of other (but not your opinions)
~..../
(now I'm making an encampment for the dinner, then will sculpture grub/iso/think.. then I will parse/supervise my post) . BRB
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xsi,

I must be missing something. With SystemRescueCD, you put it on a USB stick and you can write to the VFAT partition the squashfs lives on.
If you want some other fikesystem too, put it/them in subsequent partitions, just leave space for SystemRescueCD in the first partition.

You can make a working bootable gentoo on USB in the normal way.
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xsi
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milestone:
I've past an MBR disassembly understanding.
Trying to figure out the 4-5 times long than MBR asm code of ext2 BS. http://www.codeforge.com/read/146131/ext2.asm__html

Actually I'm in the search of a listing like this: http://www.nondot.org/sabre/os/files/Booting/mbr.txt
http://olivier.poudade.free.fr/arc/MICROSOFT.WINDOWS.95.MBR.ASM.TXT - nice too
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

xsi,

Read the source code for the bootloader of your choice. grub, grub2, lilo ...

That article is misleading. The
Hale Landis wrote:
An MBR is created by the FDISK program. The FDISK program of all
operating systems must create a functionally similar MBR.
may be been correct many years ago but its not any more.

Cylinder 0, Head 0, Sector 0, otherwise known as LBA 0 contains two things
a) the start of the boot code on disk
b) the partition table

The partition table was added is what was otherwise 'spare' space at the end of the sector as a dirty hack to cope with HDD bigger than 32Mb.
The MBR is the start of the boot code on disk. Not all bootable media have or need a partition table.

The MBR is written by the bootloader of choice, not fdisk. fdisk writes the partition table and the 0xAA55 signature at the end of the partition table.
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srs5694
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

xsi wrote:
milestone:
I've past an MBR disassembly understanding.
Trying to figure out the 4-5 times long than MBR asm code of ext2 BS. http://www.codeforge.com/read/146131/ext2.asm__html


Before you invest too much time in this, please be aware that the BIOS method of booting is on the way out. The replacement for BIOS, EFI/UEFI, has been included on most new PCs for over a year. Although most EFI implementations also support BIOS-mode booting, new computers with Windows 8 pre-installed must boot using EFI, not the old BIOS emulation code, so the transition to EFI-mode booting will proceed much more quickly now that new systems are shipping configured to boot in this way.

Under EFI, boot loaders are programs read from a FAT filesystem, not code crammed into the MBR or other officially-unallocated parts of the disk. They're also generally written in C, not assembly language. In theory, the fact that EFI boot loaders are stored as regular files makes them easier to manage. In practice, EFI has its own quirks, and the newness of the system means that there are still a lot of bugs to work out. Thus, the transition to EFI is proving to be a rather awkward one, and for a Linux or dual-boot configuration in which you start from scratch, it's often easier to install in BIOS mode unless you're an expert on EFI. I expect that matters will improve within a year or so, as Linux distributions work out the worst of their EFI kinks and as knowledge about EFI spreads among users.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

srs5694,

Maybe bootloaders are on the way out too. The kernel can be an EFI program, that the EFI BIOS can load and run directly.
No boot loader required.
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Genone
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might want to read some of Matthews posts to get an idea about the complexity of modern booting. The times of 50-line assembler programs is long gone.
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_______0
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the OP. Current LiveUSB linux approach is fundamentally flawed and un-elegant.

Why make a stupid ISO image, laydown and asstarded OPTICAL format onto a modern flash storage??

The most fucked up part is that let's say I have gentoo minimal ~200MB and happen to have a 64GB usb flash lying around, dd takes over the partition scheme making it look just non-writable 200MB 65GB brick.

I've raised this issue before on irc, but everyone loled.

The ideal approach to modern LiveUSB should be with the following options:

Code:
lvm

Code:
qemu-kvm

or
Code:
xen


The OP is also spot on, why rely linux LiveUSB with m$$$$$$ crap??

And why Gentoo don't have an official DOC to prepare a liveUSB ala one-liner SystemRescueCD instructions??

'Use systemrescueCD' is not an answer, I want LiveUSB instructions in the official gentoo handbook NOW!!! :evil:
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Follow normal installation instructions and add rootwait or initrd with uuid support.
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