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aidanjt
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
I disagree. And at the end of the day, it amounts to who has the numbers. Personally the waste issue is my main concern, giving the benefit of the doubt to the "disasters are now impossible" claim. I don't believe the latter, but it is moot until the waste issue is resolved.

Like I said, if you have radioactive waste, you're doing it wrong. Alternatively, take a deep deep hole and drop it in it. Either way, problem solved.
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you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
aidanjt wrote:
So don't just discard [waste]? Recycle the rods, reclaim the unspent fuel, separate other useful isotopes into productive products, and what you'll have left over is [waste].
:rotflmao:

Inert means non-radioactive. So it isn't nuclear waste, it's just solid metal.
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you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm talking about the hundreds of tons of lumps of radioactive fuel and waste that landed within a few kilometers of the site, not the few tons that were atomized and released into the atmosphere. Most of what what released into the atmosphere had a brief half-life (some of it a half-life measured in seconds, some in days, and the worst with a half-life of less than 30 years). However, the stuff scattered around the site was basically encased in concrete and covered up, and its half-life is much longer. The fuel used at Chernobyl was slightly enriched Uranium-235. It has a half-life of 703.8 million years. As far as I know, it didn't go anywhere, and whether it's encased in concrete or not, it's eventually going to get out.

As I said, though, this is no reason to avoid nuclear power. More to the point, nuclear power is not alone in having an indirect carbon footprint. When people talk about fossil fuels, we talk about the greenhouse gases released. But has anybody added to that the carbon footprint of everything that goes into drilling, pumping, transporting, pipe-lining, refining, distributing, and selling the stuff? Of course not. So, then, what kind of a brain-damaged person would try to add all those sorts of things to nuclear and then make an unfair comparison?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
I'm talking about the hundreds of tons of lumps of radioactive fuel and waste that landed within a few kilometers of the site, not the few tons that were atomized and released into the atmosphere. Most of what what released into the atmosphere had a brief half-life (some of it a half-life measured in seconds, some in days, and the worst with a half-life of less than 30 years). However, the stuff scattered around the site was basically encased in concrete and covered up, and its half-life is much longer. The fuel used at Chernobyl was slightly enriched Uranium-235. It has a half-life of 703.8 million years. As far as I know, it didn't go anywhere, and whether it's encased in concrete or not, it's eventually going to get out.

Yeah but stuff with 703.8 million year half-lives are practically harmless. You wouldn't want to mix it in with your 3 tailed bunny rabbit stew, but you can stand around it, and pick it up and whatnot without any harm. Radioactive material is hazardous to living things, but it's danger is greatly exaggerated. We're surrounded by radioactive material, but it only posses a danger when the levels increase to a deadly amount, and even Chernobyl, which was the worst ever disaster, has only claimed 32 lives, and that could have been avoidable if it weren't for an inept Soviet government. You could kill more people crashing a bus.

BoneKracker wrote:
As I said, though, this is no reason to avoid nuclear power. More to the point, nuclear power is not alone in having an indirect carbon footprint. When people talk about fossil fuels, we talk about the greenhouse gases released. But has anybody added to that the carbon footprint of everything that goes into drilling, pumping, transporting, pipe-lining, refining, distributing, and selling the stuff? Of course not. So, then, what kind of a brain-damaged person would try to add all those sorts of things to nuclear and then make an unfair comparison?

Exactly. And most equipment could be adapted to an electronic motor and be powered by a nuclear battery if we bothered putting even semi-serious work into nuclear power.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. It's a danger greatly exaggerated. I'm not talking about worldwide effects or people getting cancer all across Europe. I'm talking about some goat pasture being there in the year 2483 (when we're working our way back out of another neolithic period), and a village drinking the goats' milk and eating the meat. They will die of cancer. Then, in 3087, somebody will have a well nearby feeding into a town's water supply...
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Climate change is like a tree that mask the forest. The equation of climate change is very simple. Increasing carbon rate in the atmosphere is increasing its temperature. The atmosphere is a gas, in consequence, any increase of its temperature will increase the winds and the water evaporation. The final consequence is more and stronger hurricanes, and so on.

Another effect of climate change is that carbon is a fertilizer for the plants, but not all the plants have the same behaviour. It is a real concern for the rain forest because the plants that profit most of the increase of carbon are the biggest trees. The increase of their number is causing than the vegetation on the ground is slowly dying, and the ground is slowly running out of water. When this is done, even the biggest trees are dying.

If the carbon is the tree, we can also take about the forest. Actually, we are transforming all the natural resources into pollution sources. It is completely foolish and idiotic to think that we can transform our only source of life into a trash, and that it will be possible to survive. But this is globally exactly what we are doing.

Also, to think that the new technologies will solve the problem caused by the old ones is in the best case, completely naive. The promoters of those technologies are all sharing the same interest: to make money with them. So, when they said that this is the solution, this is just good marketing practices and nothing else.

If they was really interested by something else than money, as example by the future of our society and of our children, they would begin by making quotas instead of war for all the non renewable resources. Instead of that, they make bombs with the worst of our trash, depleted uranium, and use it at any occasions. From Serbia to Afghanistan, from Palestine to Iraq. It is proved that the a big part of the uranium in those munitions is acting like a gas after the impact, and that it can travel over continents with the winds: www.llrc.org/aldermastrept.pdf

And they know exactly what they are doing with such bombs - Depleted uranium: Dirty bombs, dirty missiles, dirty bullets:
Quote:
Before a new weapons system can be used, it must be fully tested. The blueprint for depleted uranium weapons is a 1943 declassified document from the Manhattan Project.

Harvard President and physicist James B. Conant, who developed poison gas in World War I, was brought into the Manhattan Project by the father of presidential candidate John Kerry. Kerry’s father served at a high level in the Manhattan Project and was a CIA agent.

Conant was chair of the S-1 Poison Gas Committee, which recommended developing poison gas weapons from the radioactive trash of the atomic bomb project in World War II. At that time, it was known that radioactive materials dispersed in bombs from the air, from land vehicles or on the battlefield produced very fine radioactive dust which would penetrate all protective clothing, any gas mask or filter or the skin. By contaminating the lungs and blood, it could kill or cause illness very quickly.

They also recommended it as a permanent terrain contaminant, which could be used to destroy populations by contaminating water supplies and agricultural land with the radioactive dust.

The first DU weapons system was developed for the Navy in 1968, and DU weapons were given to and used by Israel in 1973 under U.S. supervision in the Yom Kippur war against the Arabs.

The Phalanx weapons system, using DU, was tested on the USS Bigelow out of Hunters Point Naval Shipyard in 1977, and DU weapons have been sold by the U.S. to 29 countries.

Military research report summaries detail the testing of DU from 1974-1999 at military testing grounds, bombing and gunnery ranges and at civilian labs under contract. Today 42 states are contaminated with DU from manufacture, testing and deployment.
...
In Zbignew Brzezinski’s book “The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives,” the map of the Eurasian chessboard includes four regions strategic to U.S. foreign policy. The “South” region corresponds precisely to the regions now contaminated permanently with radiation from U.S. bombs, missiles and bullets made with thousands of tons of DU.

A Japanese professor, Dr. K. Yagasaki, has calculated that 800 tons of DU is the atomicity equivalent of 83,000 Nagasaki bombs. The U.S. has used more DU since 1991 than the atomicity equivalent of 400,000 Nagasaki bombs. Four nuclear wars indeed, and 10 times the amount of radiation released into the atmosphere from atmospheric testing!

No wonder our soldiers, their families and the people of the Middle East, Yugoslavia and Central Asia are sick. But as Henry Kissinger said after Vietnam when our soldiers came home ill from Agent Orange, “Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used for foreign policy.”

Unfortunately, more and more of those soldiers are men and women with brown skin. And unfortunately, the DU radioactive dust will be carried around the world and deposited in our environments just as the “smog of war” from the 1991 Gulf War was found in deposits in South America, the Himalayas and Hawaii.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dominique_71 wrote:
that it can travel over continents with the winds

At concentrations indistinguishable from terrestrial background radiation. We only detect those artificial isotopes at all because our knowledge of radiometrics is outstanding and we can detect and identify radio decay signatures of isotope quantities as small as a grain of sand worth of atoms in an area the size of a typical city hall. This is a typical strawman made by anti-nuclear hysterical shrills. It's like this:
Quote:
ZOMG TEH RADIATIONZ!!!
*sigh* it isn't a hazardous concentration of radioactivity.
BUT TEH RADIATIONZ!!!!!!!!!!


It's just nonsense. Nuclear/Radiation has a branding problem, not a technical one. If we called it Catalysed Quantum Particle Decoupling/Decayed Quantum Particle Decoupling nobody would give a fuck because the phrasing hasn't been hysterically scaremongered to death.
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you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The guys from the Manhattan project are not usually considered as "anti-nuclear hysterical shrills." :lol:

Also, DU is not natural uranium in the wild, but highly concentrated and extremely pure uranium. In consequence, even tiny dust can have very serious and bad impact on living creatures. And when you have so many tons of this "dust" in the atmosphere, you know that the guys in charge for this madness are just completely insane mass murderers. With a chamber gas, this is just to close the gas, with DU or U-238, you have to wait a very, very long time, 4.468 billion years.

From wikipedia:
"Normal functioning of the kidney, brain, liver, heart, and numerous other systems can be affected by uranium exposure, because uranium is a toxic metal.[7] It is weakly radioactive and remains so because of its long radioactive half-life."

The radioactive effects are not all. It is also the (bio-)chemical ones, and they are worst.

I will not redo the controversy about the health effects of every kind of uranium. You can get an overview on wikipedia.

And again, DU, like carbon, is only a tiny part of all the pollution we are generating into our only source of life, the hearth: we just transform every single natural resource into sources of pollution. In other words, We are polluting to death with increasingly fast and frenetic efforts the only source of life at our disposal. And that's criminal! This is not a way of life but a way of death!
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quotas on consumption and production are treating the symptom, not the disease. The disease is overpopulation. The solution to global warming is an immediate reduction, and long-term constraint, of global population. 25% of humans should be sterilized immediately, and the rest should be sterilized immediately upon the birth of their first child. THAT's the answer, and it's a lot more achievable than all this other nonsense. It's just that nobody has the balls to do it.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
Like I said, if you have radioactive waste, you're doing it wrong. Alternatively, take a deep deep hole and drop it in it. Either way, problem solved.
Yeah, they wanted to put it in a deep hole on a fault line near drinking water. No thanks.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Quotas on consumption and production are treating the symptom, not the disease. The disease is overpopulation. The solution to global warming is an immediate reduction, and long-term constraint, of global population. 25% of humans should be sterilized immediately, and the rest should be sterilized immediately upon the birth of their first child. THAT's the answer, and it's a lot more achievable than all this other nonsense. It's just that nobody has the balls to do it.
Balls Czar. Balthazar?

Don't forget, who is it Sunstein? He'd do it if Obama would let him.


Also, I thought this was funny...

Quote:
Sunstein - Regulatory Czar - Says animals should be able to sue people.
Holdren - Science Czar - Thinks TREES should be able to sue humans.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

:lol:
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Quotas on consumption and production are treating the symptom, not the disease. The disease is overpopulation.

Overpopulation is a consequence of the industrialisation, which used coal and oil as energy source. More energy => more population. That imply than overpopulation is a symptom, not the disease.

The disease is our way of life, or more exactly, our philosophy. Our way of life is the practice, our philosophy is the theory, the moral justification of our way of life. This moral is more or less the same from the Antiquity to today, it didn't changed much, even with the atheism in the rich countries.

The ground of our philosophy is the basic dogmas of the organized religions. It is 2 of them in the whole world, they are different in appearance, but they justify exactly the same behaviour in the society.

In Occident, Christianity, Islam and Judaism believe into the dogma of the immutable conflict of good and evil, which is introduced in the first chapter of the Bible, Genesis. In the rest of the world, we find the Confucian dogma of the complementarity of Yin, Yang and what unites them.

These dogmas attribute to things qualities they don't have. Take a stone, I can take it and throw it on your face, I can take the same stone and build a part of your house with it. In the first case, I will get an enemy, in the second case, I will get a friend. The stone is the same, it is not good, not evil, not yin, not yang. The only thing we can say for sure about this stone is that this stone is. Point.

With those superstitious qualities in place, we can make in both cases (Occident and rest of the world), the same 2 hierarchies:

- The first one between the Gods, the human being and the rest of the creation. This first hierarchy is the moral justification of both the blind exploitation of our only one source of life, and of the suicidal transformation of all natural resources into pollution sources.

- The second hierarchy is the natural consequence of the first one. Some human beings find themselves closer to the gods than other. This is the moral justification of all forms of exploitation of man by man.

Those 2 dogmas and the 2 superstitious hierarchies they imply is the ground of all forms of non respect, of all forms of racism. That imply that every single believer must ask whether the values ​​conveyed by religion correspond to the direction he intends to give up his faith.

Another bad aspect of those dogmas is their immutable aspect. In Occident, only God can change this superstitious order, that in some hypothetical future (the apocalypse). In the rest of the world, even God cannot change this superstitious order. That imply that transcendence is a quality of God or don't exist.

In practice, the human being is the only creature that can, here, now and consciously, define her goals and work to archive those defined goals. Doing this, she change her future. This is exactly what transcendence is about. That imply that, here and now, the only transcendental creature on hearth is the human being.

I am living here and now, not in some hypothetical future of the unconditional of the most-perfect.

All that imply than the only cure would be to replace exploitation by respect. But for that, we must recover our true transcendental nature. That imply than we must replace old superstitious dogmas by a scientific dogma based on the true transcendental nature of the human being, our unique capacity to, here, now and consciously, define our goals and work to archive them.

Unfortunately, to retrieve they true nature, and accept it like it is, seam to be the most difficult thing to do for lot of peoples. Unfortunately again, any other way will be just unsustainable.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dominique_71 wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Quotas on consumption and production are treating the symptom, not the disease. The disease is overpopulation.

Overpopulation is a consequence of the industrialisation, which used coal and oil as energy source. More energy => more population. That imply than overpopulation is a symptom, not the disease.

Wrong. Virtually all of the world's population growth currently is in cities of developing countries. We grew up being taught the erroneous theory, based on the European industrial revolution, that industrialization causes population explosion, but this is now understood to be false. Industrialization causes population growth to plateau; you can see this understanding reflected in all the modern population growth models. China, once the biggest population explosion problem, is now hitting that plateau and it is generally expected that India will be hitting it soon. Nigeria and similar countries remain a problem.

Since the rest of your blather was based on that invalid premise, I won't bother to respond to it.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, we are at the pic of oil production. That imply I am right.

Second, look at the curves that show oil production grow and world population grow. They imply I am right.

Third. Look at the world population, not at the population of the countries you want to look at. That imply I am right.

And last but nor least. Look at History. Exploitation of man by man begun with Antiquity when religions based on dogmas like the 2 dogmas I am talking about did appear. This fact, most than anything else, imply I am right.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dominique_71 wrote:
First, we are at the pic of oil production. That imply I am right.

Second, look at the curves that show oil production grow and world population grow. They imply I am right.

Third. Look at the world population, not at the population of the countries you want to look at. That imply I am right.

Coincidence is not causality. Moreover, if there is any correlation between the two, it's an inverse (i.e. negative) one. If population growth were directly related to industrialization, then the most industrialized countries would have experienced to most population growth, but the opposite is closer to being true.

Dominique_71 wrote:
And last but nor least. Look at History. Exploitation of man by man begun with Antiquity when religions based on dogmas like the 2 dogmas I am talking about did appear. This fact, most than anything else, imply I am right.

Blah, blah, blah. You want to try to find an excuse to insert your usual communist shtick about exploitation, but it has no relevance to the conversation.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Quotas on consumption and production are treating the symptom, not the disease. The disease is overpopulation. The solution to global warming is an immediate reduction, and long-term constraint, of global population. 25% of humans should be sterilized immediately, and the rest should be sterilized immediately upon the birth of their first child. THAT's the answer, and it's a lot more achievable than all this other nonsense. It's just that nobody has the balls to do it.

stop!

they're going to realize that the one true plan is to cause sea levels to rise so that california is underwater and loses all it's electoral votes, causing democrats to lose presidential elections for the next hundred years. they haven't yet figured out that the objections to climategate have nothing to do with scientific fraud, and everything to do with suppressing evidence long enough that california becomes the sea of california.

oops! i've said to much!
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:lol:
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Dominique_71 wrote:
First, we are at the pic of oil production. That imply I am right.

Second, look at the curves that show oil production grow and world population grow. They imply I am right.

Third. Look at the world population, not at the population of the countries you want to look at. That imply I am right.

Coincidence is not causality. Moreover, if there is any correlation between the two, it's an inverse (i.e. negative) one. If population growth were directly related to industrialization, then the most industrialized countries would have experienced to most population growth, but the opposite is closer to being true.

What you call coincidence are facts based on irrefutable curves.

BoneKracker wrote:
Dominique_71 wrote:
And last but nor least. Look at History. Exploitation of man by man begun with Antiquity when religions based on dogmas like the 2 dogmas I am talking about did appear. This fact, most than anything else, imply I am right.

Blah, blah, blah. You want to try to find an excuse to insert your usual communist shtick about exploitation, but it has no relevance to the conversation.

I am not communist, even if I like what they are doing in independent countries like Cuba or Venezuela. I am worst: a free thinker that try to take the best things of every thing and cast the bad things. And really, I see not much in the capitalist way of life that must be keep: For what I know, the capitalism is now global, at the exception of a very few countries, and you cannot blame them, if the global warning is increasing fast, and if the global pollution is increasing fast. The capitalism is a way of death, as every one that have a minimum of common sense can easily see it. The capitalism is a very big part of the problem, and it is not necessary to be a communist to see it, it is just to look at the facts.

But, if we want to replace capitalism by something that will not be one more version of the exploitation based system that pollute or way of life from Antiquity, we must first cast the dogmas that make all this bullshit will call civilisation possible. The only universality of all the civilisations is their true racism: we are civilized, the other are morons. With time, the morons are becoming more and more, up to the point the civilization is imploding. That's one of the main lesson of History. We are now at a point where the conditions of living on hearth are so threatened by massive pollution, that the only way out this bullshit is to find a new paradigm.

For that, we must draw a line through millennia of exploitation of man by man, and even more fundamental of nature by man. The only solution is to replace exploitation by conscious work, and to replace institutional racism by universal respect. Also, many communists just don't get it, and this is why, at the first place, the URSS was a failure, that from the beginning.
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