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pjp
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:42 am    Post subject: Didn't IBM deny moving jobs overseas? Reply with quote

Of course, they only did it because they couldn't get the skilled workers here.

IBM's India Workforce Likely Exceeds That In US
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dcblogs writes "IBM has 112,000 employees in India, up from 6,000 in 2002, with an average wage of about $17,000, according to an internal company document. That wage level may seem shockingly low to U.S. IT workers, but it is in alignment with IT wages in India.The Everest Group said the annual wages generally in India for a software engineer range from $8,000 to $10,000; for a senior software engineer, $12,000 to $15,000, and between $18,000 and $20,000 for a team lead. A project manager may make as much as $31,000. IBM employs about 430,000 globally. According to the Alliance at IBM, the U.S. staff is at about 92,000. It was at 121,000 at the end of 2007, and more in previous years. It has been widely expected over the past year or two that IBM's India workforce was on track to exceed its U.S. workforce, if it hadn't exceeded it already."

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the I in IBM.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was "I" a long time ago, but the war on wages is relatively new. That, and their lying about it.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it makes you feel better, IBM jobs are quite shitty. These are penny pinching, high volume, trivial jobs.

And those are year's wages.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I assumed it was yearly. The wage in and of itself isn't as relevant. For example, how much per year would qualify as "middle-class?"

I've not heard good things about working for IBM, but in my experience, all "large" companies are worthless. I used to think it was fun to have the opportunity to work on expensive equipment. Then I realized those companies, given the chance, would use slave labor.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
That's the I in IBM.

:lol: :lol:

Actually this, and most off-shoring, has a huge strategic benefit for us, if only in the long term. We are exporting our way of life, our cultural values, our language, everything. We are create economic interdependence. In the case of India, this is a great thing. We want India to be healthy, wealthy, strong, and friendly to us. We don't want a billion starving people over there.

In the case of China, that's another story. China is still a poisoned culture, bristling from centuries of racist European exploitation and nearly a century of brutal authoritarian leftism. They're racist, militant and highly antagonistic. It's like making friends with North Korea: it's just a matter of time before you the get the bayonet in your back and get trampled by thousands of screaming fanatics. Fuck them. If we had any brains, we and the whole of Europe would put a total trade embargo on them right now.
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I didn't misquote you, I just misunderstood you.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was agreeing with you until you said this:
Quote:
We are exporting our way of life, our cultural values, our language, everything.


Here's the thing though, do you know the reason why countries like US, Germany, Japan are developed and produce desirable goods? Simple answer is, an individual is, by design of your "cultural values" is taught to take pride in the work they do. Own the work. People in these countries have been in the same job for years and are pretty good at it. And the quality of work shows.

If you're truly exporting the "cultural values," I don't see much of it. Nobody here likes doing what they do for more than a year, especially in IT and forget taking pride or ownership. And the quality of the work shows.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
notageek wrote:
That's the I in IBM.

:lol: :lol:

Actually this, and most off-shoring, has a huge strategic benefit for us, if only in the long term. We are exporting our way of life, our cultural values, our language, everything. We are create economic interdependence. In the case of India, this is a great thing. We want India to be healthy, wealthy, strong, and friendly to us. We don't want a billion starving people over there.

In the case of China, that's another story. China is still a poisoned culture, bristling from centuries of racist European exploitation and nearly a century of brutal authoritarian leftism. They're racist, militant and highly antagonistic. It's like making friends with North Korea: it's just a matter of time before you the get the bayonet in your back and get trampled by thousands of screaming fanatics. Fuck them. If we had any brains, we and the whole of Europe would put a total trade embargo on them right now.


Wish it was like that, tho I left child stories about the time I was in high school and the sweetheart went away with a guy who owned a restaurant and had expensive car. :lol:

Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9Z05xyGB0c
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the problem isn't what they're paying people... it's that Americans suck so badly that it's more profitable to set up major facilities in a third world country. You never want to compete on price... it's very hard to win that battle. If your job can be done by a low priced third worlder or robot, you need to find something else to do.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's good news. Now Indians only need to learn to be fat, stupid, ugly and utterly useless and we can outsource the US as a whole to India.

big dave wrote:
... Americans suck so badly ...
Agreed 100%.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big dave wrote:
the problem isn't what they're paying people... it's that Americans suck so badly that it's more profitable to set up major facilities in a third world country.
lol. I hope that is sarcasm. Ever interacted with lower waged "doesn't suck as badly as American" tech support? Yeah, it is the wage.

Offshore the low-end jobs, and in a handful of years, you have a lack skilled workers in the mid-range. Wash, rinse, repeat. Greed is the problem.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A country cannot survive with only high-end jobs, yes true. But people pay for quality. Cars for instance, who would you buy from?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
If you're truly exporting the "cultural values," I don't see much of it. Nobody here likes doing what they do for more than a year, especially in IT and forget taking pride or ownership. And the quality of the work shows.

I completely agree. i also see none of it ( and i witness a lot ) and the quality definitely shows, esp the lack of pride and ownership.

its mainly question of quantity over quality.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, don't get me wrong but not a lot of IT work requires quality, in-fact less the quality and more the obfuscation, the better pay-check it is.

I mean, can you imagine using a software, engineered like a Rolls Royce? Would you even pay for it?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
A country cannot survive with only high-end jobs, yes true. But people pay for quality. Cars for instance, who would you buy from?


Russians?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Specimen Russian bike: http://www.uralbg.com/images/Retro%20Solo/za%20str/retro_solo3.jpg
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
Now, don't get me wrong but not a lot of IT work requires quality

:lol: :lol: :lol:

i would definitely say that if your ( not you specifically ) labor is cheap ( monetarily speaking ) enough, then yes quality objectives seem to take a backseat... or even that third row of seats in the back of old station wagens that face towards the rear of the vehicle.

its a pretty sad state of affairs.
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