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ratmonkey
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What job skills do you gain as minimum wage employee? Seriously... Most minimum wage jobs are mindless, menial, and require little to no training. Shit, you can get into warehousing in my area at about 55% higher wages than minimum wage, working full time, with benefits and most of that is mindless, menial work. I've worked two minimum wage jobs in my life, and the only thing they taught me was that I needed to find a trade so I didn't get stuck doing shit work for shit pay.

I'm kind of torn on the minimum wage thing. On one hand I agree with the point that there should be some baseline to avoid making the poor stuck in a situation that basically amounts to them becoming indentured servants, but on the other hand I also get the point that just simply raising the minimum wage may not always have the intended effect because of other economic factors that usually aren't considered when the federal government decides to raise it (of if they are, not publicized).
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ratmonkey wrote:
What job skills do you gain as minimum wage employee? Seriously... Most minimum wage jobs are mindless, menial, and require little to no training. Shit, you can get into warehousing in my area at about 55% higher wages than minimum wage, working full time, with benefits and most of that is mindless, menial work. I've worked two minimum wage jobs in my life, and the only thing they taught me was that I needed to find a trade so I didn't get stuck doing shit work for shit pay.

If nothing else it demonstrates that you are responsible enough to hold a job, demonstrate a work ethic, and establish references. And you may well learn industry-specific skills. Yes, you can approach e.g. working as a cashier as mindless and menial, or you can approach it as learning how the retail industry works and what a manager does. I can't think of too many jobs that aren't part of a larger industry that can be learned. It's sort of like the expression, "There are no boring topics, just boring people." In probably every job, if you look for the opportunity to learn something, you can find it.

Quote:
I'm kind of torn on the minimum wage thing. On one hand I agree with the point that there should be some baseline to avoid making the poor stuck in a situation that basically amounts to them becoming indentured servants, but on the other hand I also get the point that just simply raising the minimum wage may not always have the intended effect because of other economic factors that usually aren't considered when the federal government decides to raise it (of if they are, not publicized).

I'm confused. You appear to making a reasonable statement. I thought this was the part where you start bomb-throwing and calling me names? :P
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:

If nothing else it demonstrates that you are responsible enough to hold a job, demonstrate a work ethic, and establish references. And you may well learn industry-specific skills. Yes, you can approach e.g. working as a cashier as mindless and menial, or you can approach it as learning how the retail industry works and what a manager does. I can't think of too many jobs that aren't part of a larger industry that can be learned. It's sort of like the expression, "There are no boring topics, just boring people." In probably every job, if you look for the opportunity to learn something, you can find it.


is that enough to get a better job? Will having this job prevent you from training?

The one problem is that there seems to be little correlation with the value of the minimum wage and unemployment (other factors have a bigger effect on it). The question is whether it does more harm than good.

Frankly, I had a below minimum wage job, and it did f*** all for me (paper route) (certain jobs can get around minimum wage, farming is one of them). Gave me some pocket money which I blew frivolously. I should have just read a book.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:16 am    Post subject: Re: The truth about minimum wage Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
The Truth About Minimum Wage


There will be a loud Whoooosh coming from the leftist tards disagreeing with this.


Or people who understand economics?

The Thatcher government removed the de facto minimum wage in the UK in the 1980s, I know what happened, clearly you do not.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ratmonkey wrote:
What job skills do you gain as minimum wage employee? Seriously... Most minimum wage jobs are mindless, menial, and require little to no training.


Work ethic. Thus, if teenagers who live with and are mostly supported by their parents can't get these jobs, then the minimum wage is too high.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bogamol wrote:
Work ethic.

Nice little autocratic fiction to excuse trampling on workers.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
Why isn't anyone enclosing aidanjt's posts in "religious_zealot" tags? If I can't say something uncontroversial like "I think the benefits of the free market are self-evident" without being called a religious zealot, then I don't see how aidanjt gets away with these rants (and there are many, many examples) without the religious zealot police doing anything about it. Is it that people are willing to overlook zealotry when it comes from their own side?

because his response is so devoid of rational thought that it's a waste of electrons to do so. it's up there with that big government lady who said the government needs to move the deer crossing signs to a different location because deer keeping crossing there and people have to wait or they even hit the deer.

if cost exceeds value, the transaction doesn't happen. this is a basic tenet of econ. they don't get it.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
The one problem is that there seems to be little correlation with the value of the minimum wage and unemployment (other factors have a bigger effect on it). The question is whether it does more harm than good.

false. multiple studies have shown, and it's generally accepted among economists that higher minimum wage correlates with higher unemployment. many still question the causal relationship, but the correlation is there. other factors may have higher correlations, but you and the reality denialists seem to be the only ones saying there's no correlation.

when the cost exceeds the value of that work, the work either gets offshored, automated or it doesn't get done at all. no business is going to intentionally pay someone so they can lose money. let's say i'm a pizzeria owner and i know that a pizza driver brings in an additional $50/hr on friday nights, but < $5/hr at all other times, and so the average revenue from the driver is $5/hr. if the minimum wage is $8, then i'm losing $3/hr to hire this guy. at most, i'm only going to work him on friday nights. the usual case will be no job for him. now you have more people competing for the fewer jobs that are open.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big dave wrote:
juniper wrote:
The one problem is that there seems to be little correlation with the value of the minimum wage and unemployment (other factors have a bigger effect on it). The question is whether it does more harm than good.

false. multiple studies have shown, and it's generally accepted among economists that higher minimum wage correlates with higher unemployment. many still question the causal relationship, but the correlation is there. other factors may have higher correlations, but you and the reality denialists seem to be the only ones saying there's no correlation.

when the cost exceeds the value of that work, the work either gets offshored, automated or it doesn't get done at all. no business is going to intentionally pay someone so they can lose money. let's say i'm a pizzeria owner and i know that a pizza driver brings in an additional $50/hr on friday nights, but < $5/hr at all other times, and so the average revenue from the driver is $5/hr. if the minimum wage is $8, then i'm losing $3/hr to hire this guy. at most, i'm only going to work him on friday nights. the usual case will be no job for him. now you have more people competing for the fewer jobs that are open.


can you point me to any such studies?

In your example you are not accounting for the scenario where he raises the price of his pizza.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
In your example you are not accounting for the scenario where he raises the price of his pizza.

He's already charging as much as he can without losing business (the market clearing price).
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big dave wrote:
because his response is so devoid of rational thought that it's a waste of electrons to do so.

Scoffing and circle jerking isn't an argument nor disprove anything.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
bogamol wrote:
Work ethic.

Nice little autocratic fiction to excuse trampling on workers.


?! :roll:
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
juniper wrote:
In your example you are not accounting for the scenario where he raises the price of his pizza.

He's already charging as much as he can without losing business (the market clearing price).


his competitions prices will rise as well.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
dmitchell wrote:
juniper wrote:
In your example you are not accounting for the scenario where he raises the price of his pizza.

He's already charging as much as he can without losing business (the market clearing price).


his competitions prices will rise as well.

actually, it's been proven that they usually don't raise prices. they just offshore/automate the work or lay people off and scare the rest into working harder.

besides, if they just raised the prices, all you're doing is causing inflation.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big dave wrote:

actually, it's been proven that they usually don't raise prices. they just offshore/automate the work or lay people off and scare the rest into working harder.

besides, if they just raised the prices, all you're doing is causing inflation.


So, instead of fighting the companies that offshore jobs to other countries, the answer is abolishing the minimum wage so that the U.S. of A. can get back those great Apple jobs the chinese got? That way the jobs that countries like mine do for $2/hr, you can get back for $1/hr and then the workers in other countries will just ask for $0.50/hr and so on and so forth, until everyone agrees to work for free and that way slavery isn't forced, it'll be under mutual agreement.

:?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big dave wrote:
juniper wrote:
dmitchell wrote:
juniper wrote:
In your example you are not accounting for the scenario where he raises the price of his pizza.

He's already charging as much as he can without losing business (the market clearing price).


his competitions prices will rise as well.

actually, it's been proven that they usually don't raise prices. they just offshore/automate the work or lay people off and scare the rest into working harder.

besides, if they just raised the prices, all you're doing is causing inflation.


you can't offshore pizza delivery. Certain industries are naturally protected (at least right now) from having jobs shipped abroad. These generally require physical presence in a place (construction, pizza delivery, etc etc).

As to your inflation comment, yeah, it causes inflation for goods produced by minimum wage. So? Everyone pays for it then, including minimum wage people. But since everyone uses minimum wage services money from the top actually trickles to the bottom.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
But since everyone uses minimum wage services money from the top actually trickles to the bottom.
Trickle down economics. It works. Nobody ever said it made the lowest person a billionaire.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Trickle down economics. It works. Nobody ever said it made the lowest person a billionaire.

Is that a joke? Sarcasm doesn't carry well over the internet.
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you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait. You're being sarcastic, right?

Money creates jobs. That's trickle down in it's simplest form.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Money creates jobs. That's trickle down in it's simplest form.

No it doesn't, that's never been demonstrated to be true. Jobs are only ever created to meet public demand for goods and services, and right now the public is flat broke. If wealthy possession of money created jobs we'd be fucking busting at the seams with jobs and jobly goodness would be spewing everywhere. Trickle-down is the greatest con job peddled to the public, ever. I'm genuinely surprised you'd believe that nonsense.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm equally surprised you've bought into that propaganda.

I've never heard the claim that the existence of money magically poofed jobs into existence. That is some grossly distorted misrepresentation.

Quote:
Jobs are only ever created to meet public demand for goods and services
This is true. Or at least when jobs are created that have no demand, those jobs don't last. This also demonstrates why government is a drain and should be kept as small as possible.

Quote:
and right now the public is flat broke.
Depending on who you listen to, the private sector is just fine. The public isn't flat broke. The public fears the recession (neighbor is affected) growing and leading to a depression (they are affected). Yes, unemployment is unacceptably high (yay winning policies), but the fear of losing a job is what keeps money from being spent.

When money is spent, it creates jobs. Someone sees a need for a product or service and hires people to provide those products/services. People buy them. Those new employees now have "reliable" income to spend. That spending then helps create demand for other goods and services, which in turn perpetuates the cycle. If nobody provides a product or service you need or want, then those jobs aren't going to be created. At the time, there was no inherent _need_ for the automobile.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
his competitions prices will rise as well.

Yes, but there will be fewer buyers of pizza at the higher price.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
juniper wrote:
his competitions prices will rise as well.

Yes, but there will be fewer buyers of pizza at the higher price.


so what will happen? the pizza business will lose some money, there will be a small percentage of layoffs. However, people are likely not going to eat less. So, while wages at the local grocery store will rise, their product will still be an attractive alternative to the slightly higher priced pizza. They may be hiring.

here's a recent interesting article from the economist apropos this discussion. As I said above, lefty economists have argued that employers have used their buying power to push down wages below market value. Righties disagree. In any case, it seems at best controversial and mixed the effect on employment.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
people are likely not going to eat less.
But they may eat out less often.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
juniper wrote:
people are likely not going to eat less.
But they may eat out less often.


indeed. so?
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