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McGruff
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
All else being equal, of course. I don't see why this is controversial. If your savings were suddenly doubled, wouldn't you be better equipped to deal with adverse events? Of course you would.


You're living in cloud cuckoo land if you don't think that climate change will wreck the world economy.

We're facing an almost unimaginable catastrophe which will destroy a vast chunk of life on earth (including a large part of the human population) and yet you won't do anything about it because you don't approve of government action. Nothing could better illustrate the moral and intellectual bankruptcy, and the utter irrelevance of libertarianism.
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dmitchell
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
You're living in cloud cuckoo land if you don't think that climate change will wreck the world economy.

That's like saying you are nuts if you don't think arsenic will kill you -- it actually depends on the dose and the available treatment options. Similarly, the economic effects of climate change depend on the level of change and the tools we have at hand for mitigating the effects. You should have said "catastrophic climate change," but I guess including such qualifiers implicitly admits that this isn't the kind of black-and-white issue that you like to pretend it is.

Quote:
We're facing an almost unimaginable catastrophe which will destroy a vast chunk of life on earth (including a large part of the human population) and yet you won't do anything about it because you don't approve of government action. Nothing could better illustrate the moral and intellectual bankruptcy, and the utter irrelevance of libertarianism.

First, I wonder if you realize how hysterical you sound? Second, government action isn't me doing something any more than welfare programs are me being charitable. Third, nowhere did Murphy argue that nothing should be done because he is opposed to government action categorically--that's just a straw man. Murphy didn't even argue that nothing should be done. Fourth, people who mock concerns about needlessly sacrificing the welfare of future humans on an Algorean alter shouldn't go around accusing people of moral bankruptcy. Glass houses and what not.
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dmitchell
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ratmonkey wrote:
juniper wrote:
Sorry, I don't belong to that religion.


++

Ouch. You gave your seal of approval to nonsense. How embarrassing.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
All else being equal, of course. I don't see why this is controversial. If your savings were suddenly doubled, wouldn't you be better equipped to deal with adverse events? Of course you would.

Magically doubling savings (even *if* that did happen in reality, which there's no evidence for) doesn't magically double resources.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I wonder if you realize how hysterical you sound?


By dismissing the likely catastrophic impacts of climate change as too "black and white" for your taste, I wonder if you realise how smug and narcissistic you sound? We can't "adapt" to 4+ degrees. We get the shit kicked out of us. Money won't help.

Wealth is ultimately based on natural resources. One of the most important of these, one which we all seem to take for granted, is cheap, plentiful food. Without that, you can't have a modern industrial economy. Same deal for energy. If we're going to adapt - ie maintain our current, western standards of living - we have to do two things: preserve rich, food-producing environments across the globe and find alternative sources of cheap energy.

We're already committed to a certain amount of disruption because we ignored calls for a global Marshall plan in the early 90's. Now we have to make immediate cuts of over 5% per year if we are serious about avoiding the really scary stuff. Tell me: in what ways do you think market forces could act to deliver this?

The predominant market forces I see are carbon-funded, right-wing think tanks and politicians doing everything in their power to pervert the public understanding of climate science. Looks like a big market fail to me.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Want to go double or quits on your avatar for that? You could get your old avatar back today. If you're sure you're right.

If you're not sure, I guess you won't want to take the bet. You'll probably want to stop the mindless Gore-bashing too.

You probably believe he fucking invented the internet too. True believers. :lol:

And I could have my old avatar back anytime I wanted. But unlike leftist tools, I do have a sense of honor.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No bet then? I see you're learning wisdom as well as honor :)

For the record, Gore offsets his emissions so his carbon footprint is very low. Might even be zero. Not sure about that though.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
No bet then? I see you're learning wisdom as well as honor :)

For the record, Gore offsets his emissions so his carbon footprint is very low. Might even be zero. Not sure about that though.

Where and when I come from, an honorable person lead by example.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
We're facing an almost unimaginable catastrophe which will destroy a vast chunk of life on earth


Going by past real world data, the last time temperatures and atmospheric CO2 contents were at your worst case levels, life on Earth flourished as never before or since. Anything else is pure conjecture (bullshit) on your part. :wink:
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haven't we done this already? You've missed out a rather important part of the story: the bit where changing climate rapidly wipes out two-thirds of the world's species and then a 25 million year (or so) wait for new ones to evolve. None of this is conjecture. It is mainstream science. I'd bet my avatar on it.

However, apart from this trifling detail, you are correct. Life will flourish again. It always does. It'll take a timespan many times greater than all of the rest of human history to get there though.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcfluff, if gore really believed in climate change, why did he buy a multimillion dollar mansion that will be one of the first to fall into the ocean if he's actually right about global warming?

the douchebag set up companies to handle climate regulation services, and then is trying to use regulation to force everyone to use his company.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big dave wrote:
mcfluff, if gore really believed in climate change, why did he buy a multimillion dollar mansion that will be one of the first to fall into the ocean if he's actually right about global warming?


You say his house is threatened by sea level rise as predicted by mainstream climate science: but are you prepared to bet your avatar on that?
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flysideways
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good ole Redneckistan

Put up or shut up.

Manbearpig will do neither.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
big dave wrote:
mcfluff, if gore really believed in climate change, why did he buy a multimillion dollar mansion that will be one of the first to fall into the ocean if he's actually right about global warming?


You say his house is threatened by sea level rise as predicted by mainstream climate science: but are you prepared to bet your avatar on that?

so are you suggesting that all the catastrophe cultists forecasting sea level escalation are looneys, or are you admitting that gore is a self-serving piece of shit?
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You claimed Gore is a hypocrite because he bought a mansion which is at risk from the kind of sea level rise he campaigns about. Want to bet your avatar on it (winner picks the loser's avatar for 3 weeks)? Or do you want to pussy out and be exposed as someone who doesn't really mean what they say?
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never said gore was a hypocrite; I said he's a buffoon and an own-ass-sniffing circus-monkey.

He's also a dumb-ass. Did you know that he graduated around the 50% level from high school, and in college he entirely avoided taking any real science or math courses? His highest level of education is a Bachelor of Arts degree (you have to take math and science to get a Bachelor of Science).
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
You claimed Gore is a hypocrite because he bought a mansion which is at risk from the kind of sea level rise he campaigns about. Want to bet your avatar on it (winner picks the loser's avatar for 3 weeks)? Or do you want to pussy out and be exposed as someone who doesn't really mean what they say?


are you betting that gore doesn't believe in doomsday flooding or are you saying he didn't buy a beach mansion? or is his 67 meters of flooding he's talking about not high enough for you.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many houses, cars, boats, and planes does Al Gore own now? He must have the carbon footprint of tank battalion.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big dave wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
You claimed Gore is a hypocrite because he bought a mansion which is at risk from the kind of sea level rise he campaigns about. Want to bet your avatar on it (winner picks the loser's avatar for 3 weeks)? Or do you want to pussy out and be exposed as someone who doesn't really mean what they say?


are you betting that gore doesn't believe in doomsday flooding or are you saying he didn't buy a beach mansion? or is his 67 meters of flooding he's talking about not high enough for you.


OK the first video talks about 20ft. That's 6 TO 7 metres - not "67m" :roll: That can't actually happen in the near future, ie this century, although it certainly can in a longer time frame*. However, I'm not going to be picky. I'm willing to gamble that Al Gore's beach mansion, the one in your photo, is not under threat from a 20ft rise on any timescale you like. Hell, I'll up that to 100ft if you want.

* melting of Greenland or the West Antarctic ice sheet would raise sea levels 20ft (6 meters). This was the sea level around 125,000 years ago during the last inter-glacial period when global temperatures were only a degree or two warmer than today. Given that this is close to the minimum temperature rise we can expect in the future, that ought to give pause for thought.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Nothing could better illustrate the moral and intellectual bankruptcy, and the utter irrelevance of libertarianism.


Actually, your guys have no answers either. High horse makes you dizzy.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
Actually, your guys have no answers either.


Do you want to bet your avatar on that?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Prenj wrote:
Actually, your guys have no answers either.


Do you want to bet your avatar on that?


Absolutely.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me check who are "my people"? I assume you mean mainstream climate scientists?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Let me check who are "my people"? I assume you mean mainstream climate scientists?


Whoever the anti-libertarians are with whom you identify with, implied by your previous comment.

The reason is very simple. I don't need any numbers at all. You are parroting a propaganda, so whatever the confirmation-bias source you quote, I can bet it's off.

You can quote observations about climate change, which I may agree with, on face value, but the fact is that no political party has a recipe for fixing it. Only people that lived in balance with nature were natives and there is nobody on planet living that way.

Lightweight. :lol:
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well there's Al Gore who, as previously mentioned, was calling for a global Marshall plan to tackle climate change way back in 1990. There's economics professor Nick Stern who made a case for investing now to cut carbon rather than waiting to suffer the much more severe economic consequences of doing nothing. From the world of science, there's James Hansen who has argued powerfully that coal must be left in the ground, advocated nuclear energy, renewables in a smart grid, and energy efficiency. How many people saying "we need to start reducing carbon emissions now" do you want?
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