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| Who will win the U.S. general election on Tuesday? |
| Definitely Obama |
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18% |
[ 6 ] |
| Probably Obama |
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46% |
[ 15 ] |
| Unsure |
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12% |
[ 4 ] |
| Probably Romney |
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9% |
[ 3 ] |
| Definitely Romney |
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9% |
[ 3 ] |
| Contested |
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3% |
[ 1 ] |
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| Total Votes : 32 |
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flysideways
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 145
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 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| It appears as though those with their hands out have given back. |
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juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 756
Location: EU
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | Yeah, you had that two percent margin figured out pretty good. My hat is off to you. You're a master debater.
Another empire fades from short-lived glory. Our country will now become indistinguishable from Canada. Even New Yorkers will become polite and sheepish, calling from the windows of cars, "pardon me, sir, but I had the right of way", rather than flipping the bird and shouting "Ay! Fuck yowah mothah, yoo motha fuckin' cock suckah!" |
Nonsense. you can distinguish the US from Canada in at least one way.
US debt clock
Canada debt clock
51000/person in US vs 17000/person in Canada. you guys owe 3 times more per person.  |
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energyman76b
Advocate
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 2022
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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well, there are really two thing to learn from this election
a) pjp, wswartzendruber and Bonekracker are just a very vocal minority.
b) the US population prefers Obama over some religious nutjob.
The republidumb party wil learn its lesson. Next time they will nominate a even more fanatical religious nutjob team, thus alienating almost all potential voters and giving the victory away to the manliest candidate the democratic party ever fielded: Hillary Clinton.
_________________
| AidanJT wrote: |
Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.
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Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup. |
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notageek
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 78
Location: Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Obligatory: http://i.imgur.com/5TZ3X.jpg
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notageek
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 78
Location: Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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energyman, strike BK off that list. He voted for Obama. Purposefully so that he can say that to you in future arguments. And I shouldn't be stealing his thunder by saying this.
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anyNiXwilldo
Apprentice
Joined: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 173
Location: US
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: |
The republidumb party wil learn its lesson. Next time they will nominate a even more fanatical religious nutjob team, thus alienating almost all potential voters |
I don't think so. The voters are centrist. Obama was elected because he was centrist, both times. I believe Romney is centrist. If anything, he was rejected because he's the perfect example of the plutocracy. It's hard to run on a platform of 'personal responsibility,' when your Richie Rich candidate never had to lift a finger to become rich himself. Romney's additional problem was he couldn't be his centrist self and play to the Tea Party nutjobs at the same time. The far right extremists would have rejected him if took the middle road in the campaign, even though the middle road is the road to victory.
The GOP needs to get back to the center and expand the tent. America won't be majority white for much longer. GOP obstructionism for the past 4 years didn't work, if the elections tell us anything. The Chicken Little propaganda hasn't worked the past 4 years, as far as Obama being socialist, muslim, hating America, wanting to destroy the country, etc. If the voters had bought any of it, the elections would have turned out differently. The Chicken Little propaganda & obstructionism might have played to convince the extremists, but they were already convinced and convincing them doesn't win the election. Neither did the voters buy the anti-Obamacare propaganda of the last couple of years. We are not stupid. We know the original ideas of health insurance reform came from the Republicans, in response to Hillary's push for single payer in the mid-90s. It's been rather comical to see the Republicans pretend otherwise for the past couple of years.
In the end, I doubt any of it matters anyway. The economy was destroyed due to mortgage fraud, which allowed the top 1% to extract 60% of the income in 2007. All that matters to them now is that the public remain divided, with the libs blaming the conservatives and the conservatives blaming the libs, long enough until the statue of limitations runs out on prosecuting the fraud. Just remember, wealth redistribution is ok, even when fraudulent, as long as the redistribution is from bottom to the 1% on top. Both parties agree, because neither party will lift a finger to prosecute.
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energyman76b
Advocate
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 2022
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| anyNiXwilldo wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: |
The republidumb party wil learn its lesson. Next time they will nominate a even more fanatical religious nutjob team, thus alienating almost all potential voters |
I don't think so. The voters are centrist. Obama was elected because he was centrist, both times. I believe Romney is centrist. If anything, he was rejected because he's the perfect example of the plutocracy. It's hard to run on a platform of 'personal responsibility,' when your Richie Rich candidate never had to lift a finger to become rich himself. Romney's additional problem was he couldn't be his centrist self and play to the Tea Party nutjobs at the same time. The far right extremists would have rejected him if took the middle road in the campaign, even though the middle road is the road to victory.
The GOP needs to get back to the center and expand the tent. America won't be majority white for much longer. GOP obstructionism for the past 4 years didn't work, if the elections tell us anything. The Chicken Little propaganda hasn't worked the past 4 years, as far as Obama being socialist, muslim, hating America, wanting to destroy the country, etc. If the voters had bought any of it, the elections would have turned out differently. The Chicken Little propaganda & obstructionism might have played to convince the extremists, but they were already convinced and convincing them doesn't win the election. Neither did the voters buy the anti-Obamacare propaganda of the last couple of years. We are not stupid. We know the original ideas of health insurance reform came from the Republicans, in response to Hillary's push for single payer in the mid-90s. It's been rather comical to see the Republicans pretend otherwise for the past couple of years.
In the end, I doubt any of it matters anyway. The economy was destroyed due to mortgage fraud, which allowed the top 1% to extract 60% of the income in 2007. All that matters to them now is that the public remain divided, with the libs blaming the conservatives and the conservatives blaming the libs, long enough until the statue of limitations runs out on prosecuting the fraud. Just remember, wealth redistribution is ok, even when fraudulent, as long as the redistribution is from bottom to the 1% on top. Both parties agree, because neither party will lift a finger to prosecute. |
Your posting... so beautiful. I would turn it into a sig....
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| AidanJT wrote: |
Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.
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Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup. |
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mcgruff
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| anyNiXwilldo wrote: | | The GOP needs to get back to the center and expand the tent. |
Not going to happen any time soon with Koch's tea party pulling hard to the right.
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anyNiXwilldo
Apprentice
Joined: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 173
Location: US
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | | anyNiXwilldo wrote: | | The GOP needs to get back to the center and expand the tent. |
Not going to happen any time soon with Koch's tea party pulling hard to the right. |
Unless the elections are bought and paid for, to better control the electorate. What's the historical rundown?
Dem Clinton-2 Terms
GOP=Bush-2 Terms
Dem -Obama-2 Terms
GOP-? 2 terms
It should be relatively simple to continue the pattern, as long as you have the money and own the media, because if you own the media, you control the conversation.
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notageek
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 78
Location: Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Why did George Bush have one term then?
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anyNiXwilldo
Apprentice
Joined: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 173
Location: US
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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The recession.
Did it matter when Obama replaced Bush, given he continued ALL of Bush policies, except he added the ability to kill US citizens without due process? (Admittedly, that pretty much instantly solved problems like Gitmo. No need to detain them if they are dead.)
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John-Boy
Guru
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Posts: 436
Location: Desperately seeking Moksha in all the wrong places
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The GOP needs to get back to the center |
We've got that - both main parties scrambling for the middle ground.
It ain't pretty
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anyNiXwilldo
Apprentice
Joined: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 173
Location: US
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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Well I only offer speculation for the next presidential election. I have no proof, nor any way to get any proof, as to which party will take the presidency in the next election. Once the campaign starts and donations are coming in, anybody will be able to make predictions based on which candidate is funded the most.
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BoneKracker
Veteran
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1488
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| anyNiXwilldo wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: |
The republidumb party wil learn its lesson. Next time they will nominate a even more fanatical religious nutjob team, thus alienating almost all potential voters |
I don't think so. The voters are centrist. Obama was elected because he was centrist, both times. I believe Romney is centrist. If anything, he was rejected because he's the perfect example of the plutocracy. It's hard to run on a platform of 'personal responsibility,' when your Richie Rich candidate never had to lift a finger to become rich himself. Romney's additional problem was he couldn't be his centrist self and play to the Tea Party nutjobs at the same time. The far right extremists would have rejected him if took the middle road in the campaign, even though the middle road is the road to victory. |
Obama wasn't elected because he's a centrist. Obama was elected because he's a populist demagogue. "Hope & Change FTW!" "Global Warming!" "I'll close Guantanamo the day I'm elected!" "Republicans will take away your vagina and put you back in chains!" Obama got practically all the Latino vote, despite having had the harshest immigration policies of any U.S. president yet, and deporting more illegal immigrants than any other. Ask yourself why.
Also, "centrist" is relative. Relative to George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George H.W. Bush, and Ronald Reagan, (or even John McCain), Obama is not at all "centrist", but a domestically authoritarian left-winger. People didn't elect him to retain the status quo; they elected him because he promised "change". While most of his promises were lies, he has indeed tried to deliver wealth redistribution, at the cost of economic recovery and social authoritarianism. Now, relative to Angela Merkel, Gordon Brown, and Paul Martin, or relative to Ron Paul, Bernie Sanders, or, say, Hugo Chavez, yes, Obama is a centrist.
| anyNiXwilldo wrote: | | The GOP needs to get back to the center and expand the tent. America won't be majority white for much longer. GOP obstructionism for the past 4 years didn't work, if the elections tell us anything. The Chicken Little propaganda hasn't worked the past 4 years, as far as Obama being socialist, muslim, hating America, wanting to destroy the country, etc. If the voters had bought any of it, the elections would have turned out differently. The Chicken Little propaganda & obstructionism might have played to convince the extremists, but they were already convinced and convincing them doesn't win the election. Neither did the voters buy the anti-Obamacare propaganda of the last couple of years. We are not stupid. We know the original ideas of health insurance reform came from the Republicans, in response to Hillary's push for single payer in the mid-90s. It's been rather comical to see the Republicans pretend otherwise for the past couple of years. |
Other than acknowledging centrism as the path to victory, I think here you may be focusing too much on who won and who lost in drawing your conclusions with respect to the electorate. What is far more significant and most characteristic about this outcome is that it was a nearly even split: 50% to 49%. The opposition party always does the kinds of things you're talking about, and from your comments here, I can guess that you're not old enough to have been fully politically conscious during the Bush Administration. But are you saying "the Democratic Party needs to get back to center and quick"? Why not? The different of a single percent of voters? Think about it this way: they could have got a hell of a lot more accomplished if they had not lost their majority in the House of Representatives, and we know why that happened.
| anyNiXwilldo wrote: | | In the end, I doubt any of it matters anyway. The economy was destroyed due to mortgage fraud, which allowed the top 1% to extract 60% of the income in 2007. All that matters to them now is that the public remain divided, with the libs blaming the conservatives and the conservatives blaming the libs, long enough until the statue of limitations runs out on prosecuting the fraud. Just remember, wealth redistribution is ok, even when fraudulent, as long as the redistribution is from bottom to the 1% on top. Both parties agree, because neither party will lift a finger to prosecute. |
That's one way of looking at it. It's equally true that the economy was destroyed by well-intended but ill-conceived government intervention in the housing markets. The one percent were not the only stakeholders who made that happen; the idea originated with Democrats and there was bipartisan support for it. "Home Ownership: The American Dream." No market would naturally permit such risks to propagate; it happened because of government subsidization and guarantees, coupled with woefully inadequate awareness of the likely unintended consequences (and, on the part of Democrats responsible for oversight, even active denialism about the realization of these risks).
Blaming "the 1%" for the financial collapse is like stupidly ordering somebody to leave a half-butchered steer outside totally in the open and then blaming the animals for eating it.
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mcgruff
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | 50.4% to 48.1%. |
FTFY
I was so hoping Rmoney would get 47%.
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16029
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: | well, there are really two thing to learn from this election
a) pjp, wswartzendruber and Bonekracker are just a very vocal minority.
b) the US population prefers Obama over some religious nutjob.
The republidumb party wil learn its lesson. Next time they will nominate a even more fanatical religious nutjob team, thus alienating almost all potential voters and giving the victory away to the manliest candidate the democratic party ever fielded: Hillary Clinton. |
For the record, I never supported Romney. I also pointed out he was "no Reagan" and not at all a reason to vote FOR him or the party.
The US population does not prefer Obama, VOTERS preferred Obama. Apparently Romney received ~2 million fewer votes than did McCain. I haven't seen the comparison for Obama.
Also, Romney isn't that extreme. He was a moderate. I agree his choice of religion is questionable.
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BoneKracker
Veteran
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1488
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | 50.4% to 48.1%. |
FTFY
I was so hoping Rmoney would get 47%. |
It's 2%. I predicted months ago that Obama would win a very narrow popular victory and a fairly decisive electoral victory. This is not a mandate for anything but bi-partisan cooperation, and the reason he did so poorly in his first four years is because, right from his first weeks in office, he refused to cooperate and insisted on playing chicken with the nation's economy.
People don't seem very enthused by the victory. I have never seen the media so glum after a presidential election, particularly after a Democrat win. Even Democrats are acting pessimistic.
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anyNiXwilldo
Apprentice
Joined: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 173
Location: US
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: |
Obama was elected because he's a populist demagogue. |
And a socialist and a muslim and wants to destroy America, etc and so on.
| BoneKracker wrote: |
"Hope & Change FTW!" |
Marketing slogan. Don't you know his campaign donors paid for it. Don't you know the media used it exactly as instructed.
| BoneKracker wrote: |
"Global Warming!" |
Of course science is wrong. We should listen to those with science degrees, only if they have worked for a Libertarian think tank for the past 20 years, instead of having worked doing actual science for the past 20 years.. And of course, a geneticist would be well informed as to climatology. But any of the numerous scientists employed at the National Academies of Science of the major countries of the world should be summarily dismissed.
| BoneKracker wrote: |
"Republicans will take away your vagina and put you back in chains!"
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Actually, they just believe in 'smaller government', unless a woman is pregnant, then they believe the nose of the government should be all up in her uterus, making decisions for her.
| BoneKracker wrote: |
Obama got practically all the Latino vote, despite having had the harshest immigration policies of any U.S. president yet, and deporting more illegal immigrants than any other. Ask yourself why. |
Deportations always rise during recessions.
| BoneKracker wrote: |
People didn't elect him to retain the status quo; they elected him because he promised "change". |
Compare his approval numbers to Bush's and it's clear he did indeed deliver change.
| BoneKracker wrote: |
he has indeed tried to deliver wealth redistribution, |
In what way?
| BoneKracker wrote: |
But are you saying "the Democratic Party needs to get back to center and quick"? |
You read what I wrote, so there's no need for strawmen.
| BoneKracker wrote: |
Why not? |
The election results.
| BoneKracker wrote: |
Think about it this way: they could have got a hell of a lot more accomplished if they had not lost their majority in the House of Representatives, and we know why that happened. |
They lost the majority due to the Tea Party. This go round, the Tea Party was booted. I mean really, a seat went from Establishment GOP->TP in 2010 to Democrat last night. Isn't that enough to make it clear to the GOP as to where the problem might be? (Hint: TP rape apologists won't win with women.)
| BoneKracker wrote: |
It's equally true that the economy was destroyed by well-intended but ill-conceived government intervention in the housing markets. |
It begins with the Federal Reserve holding interest rates low enough to fund an asset bubble.
| BoneKracker wrote: |
The one percent were not the only stakeholders who made that happen; the idea originated with Democrats and there was bipartisan support for it. |
How did the government or Democrats decide what we REALLY needed was a 'free market' way to register mortgages, that would be 'privately' owned, and therefore free of government influence, while simultaneously ripping states & counties out of mortgage recording fess needed to fund local governments (as had been the way for 400 years), yet also managing to royally screw up the chains of title of millions of pieces of real property?Death of MERS
How did the government or Democrats decide that Countrywide should use automated underwriting in what is referred to as 'Hustle' loans? How did the government or the Democrats decide to type any number necessary into a computer to get mortgage approvals for clients? Civil Suit Filed
Please explain what the government or Democrats did that made it necessary for the state of Nevada to make submission of fraudulent foreclosure documents to Nevada state courts be felonious and require a $5000 fine. In particular, explain how it is the government's or Democrats fault, when it was corporations that were submitting such documents in thousands courts all over the country. Nevada
And please don't answer 'we need less government regulation and intervention in our lives.' Were it not for forged & fraudulent foreclosure documents, Nevada would not have regulated it to a felony. See how that works?
1. First there is no regulation
2. Business screws up or commits fraud
3. Government regulation
| BoneKracker wrote: |
it happened because of government subsidization and guarantees, |
How long has Freddie Mac & Fannie Mae existed? If longer than 10 years, then why didn't such a bubble happen years ago?
| BoneKracker wrote: |
coupled with woefully inadequate awareness of the likely unintended consequences, |
Why didn't it happen in the 90s, or the 80s or the 70s?
| BoneKracker wrote: |
Blaming "the 1%" for the financial collapse is like stupidly ordering somebody to leave a half-butchered steer outside totally in the open and then blaming the animals for eating it. |
When the private corporations could type any number into a computer to represent a person's income, without even telling the person they were doing so, then sell the mortgages off before they went bad, it surely wasn't the people at the bottom coordinating the scam. When certain corporations got together and decided to create MERS to avoid mortgage recording fees, which also screwed up chains of title on properties all over the country while leaving local governments unfunded, it was not the Democrats nor the government that made that decision. Since it was corporations submitting forged and fraudulent foreclosure documents in thousands of courts all over the country, it could not have been the government nor the Dems doing it.
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Last edited by anyNiXwilldo on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:32 am; edited 5 times in total |
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anyNiXwilldo
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Joined: 20 Feb 2004
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Location: US
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | [
This is not a mandate for anything but bi-partisan cooperation, |
Are you sure? I can't help but think its a mandate on gridlock, ie, as long as the government is in gridlock, they can do no further damage.
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BoneKracker
Veteran
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| anyNiXwilldo wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | [
This is not a mandate for anything but bi-partisan cooperation, |
Are you sure? I can't help but think its a mandate on gridlock, ie, as long as the government is in gridlock, they can do no further damage. |
I'm not in the mood at the moment to wade through the swamp of of programmed, emotional, knee-jerk reactions and logical fallacies (including numerous strawmen, of course) that your post above this comprises. I I will only suggest you try harder to set aside your prejudices and read what people are actually saying.
As to this one, you don't think adding $6,400,000,000,000 to our national debt in four short years qualifies as damage?
On track for another $1.1 trillion to be added in FY13.
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anyNiXwilldo
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Joined: 20 Feb 2004
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Location: US
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: |
I'm not in the mood at the moment to wade through the swamp of of programmed, emotional, knee-jerk reactions and logical fallacies (including numerous strawmen, of course) that your post above this comprises. |
I am totally fine with letting those who read here comb through the information and making their own decisions.
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Prenj
n00b
Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 7
Location: Mostar, BiH
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:46 am Post subject: |
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| anyNiXwilldo wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: |
I'm not in the mood at the moment to wade through the swamp of of programmed, emotional, knee-jerk reactions and logical fallacies (including numerous strawmen, of course) that your post above this comprises. |
I am totally fine with letting those who read here comb through the information and making their own decisions. |
Let me ask simple question. Regarding "CHANGE" what, exactly, did change? |
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Old School
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Posts: 231
Location: The Covered Bridge Capital of Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| anyNiXwilldo wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: |
I'm not in the mood at the moment to wade through the swamp of of programmed, emotional, knee-jerk reactions and logical fallacies (including numerous strawmen, of course) that your post above this comprises. |
I am totally fine with letting those who read here comb through the information and making their own decisions. |
My conclusion closely matches BoneKracker's.
Typical liberal; letting emotion overcome logic with knee jerks, logical fallacies, and strawmen.
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anyNiXwilldo
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:25 am Post subject: |
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| Old School wrote: |
Typical liberal; letting emotion overcome logic with knee jerks, logical fallacies, and strawmen. |
Fraud via MERS had nothing to do with government nor Dems, but was setup in the free market, precisely to avoid government regulation.
Countrywide was a corporation perpetrating fraud WITHOUT bothering to notify those who applied for mortgages.
Corporations submitted forged/fraudulent foreclosure documents in thousands courts all over the country. It got so bad Nevada had to make it a felony.
Neither the government nor Dems had a thing to do with any of this.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:52 am Post subject: |
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You are being willfully obtuse. The fraud you describe was all about hiding the riskiness of these particular mortgage-backed securities. But, there is nothing inherently risky about mortgage-backed securities. The risk was caused by Government policy encouraging the issuance of mortgage loans to individuals who would not otherwise have been eligible. The Government established, subsidized, and oversaw operations to make these loans happen, offering an implied guarantee of them. Then, the risk was realized; interest rates rose and the borrowers could not fulfill their obligations. THAT is what caused the financial collapse: taxpayers being put on the hook for trillions of dollars in toxic assets created at the behest of the Government -- toxic assets that would not have existed without Government meddling in markets. Whether those assets changed hands or derivatives created, and the risk thereby fraudulently concealed is not the root cause here. The risk wouldn't have existed to begin with because banks are normally presumed to be rational economic actors and not to be making risky loans by the boatload. The root cause is ill-conceived, interventionist social policy that had vast unintended consequences.
You are still blaming the animals for eating your steer, after you ordered your butcher to leave it outside in the open overnight.
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Oldthinkers unbellyfeel INGSOC.
-- Headline of a document on Winston Smith's terminal in his cubicle at the Ministry of Truth, seen briefly in the background in one scene of the movie rendition of Nineteen Eighty-Four.
Last edited by BoneKracker on Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Off the Wall
