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Muso
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
Prenj wrote:
sugar wrote:
whatever.


Moon Unit Zappa did a song with her father about people like that.


about people who are trying to stay on topic?


:lol:

You're the one off topic. Here's the OP :
Quote:
Topic: Domestic policy
Date: October 3, 9:00 pm EST
Location: Denver, Colorado

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juniper
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
You people are too young to remember the real debates that were run by the League of Women Voters, not these travesties that are controlled by the two Parties, via a Congressional Committee.


we can all read, although I do remember Perot in the debates. you can read about the issue here: how the league and country got screwed.

But I am always surprised at how small an issue this is. In the 2008 and political debates in canada, the leftist NDP and Cons wanted the Green Party excluded from the debate (the four parties with significant representation in the commons are always there: Cons, Libs, NDP, Bloc) and threatened to boycott. They did have a minor case: that there are already four parties there and the Greens had no representation in the commons. In any case, the general outcry over this exclusion made such waves that Greens were included. No seats produced, but in 2011 they won their first seat (despite being excluded from the debates that year). the one time I saw her, the Green leader was the most impressive debater by a long shot.

The ultimate decision on who to invite comes from the CBC, the dreaded STATE MEDIA, who waffle between including and excluding the Greens (usually based on the fact that they didn't have enough support). But you have a completely different game in Canada; there is no question the debate will include at least 4 people.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
dmitchell wrote:
sugar wrote:
because science affects policy, eg energy, agriculture, fisheries and ocean health, public health and biosecurity, food supply issues, natural resource policies etc.

Good reasons to hear scientists debate science. I'm still waiting for a reason to hear politicians debate science.


indeed. but both candidates should know basic science as their decisions affect a lot of science.

Not really. The legislators have much more impact. The president just executes, and they have a vast staff of experts to advise them. As to policy and recommending budgetary reallocations, he is steering a battleship; he is limited in reality to making tiny changes, a little bit at a time, all of which are subject to approval of the legislators, and all of which depend on what amounts to a consensus approval of the echelons of bureaucrats below him who can just passive-aggressively wait him out.

When it comes to big changes, Presidents can only jump on existing bandwagons already in motion, perhaps tilting the balance, and then try to take credit.

As an example, in the revisionist history we all learn, a big light bulb went on over J.F.K.'s head, and he said, "Let's go to the Moon!" It didn't happen like that. There was a groundswell of interest in a manned Moon mission starting in the 1950s, long before his involvement, then with Sputnik, fear of technological inferiority to the Communists provided the motivation for legislators to fund it. It wasn't his idea any more than supporting "Freedom Fighters" in Soviet-occupied Afghanistan was Reagan's.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:

Not really. The legislators have much more impact. The president just executes, and they have a vast staff of experts to advise them. As to policy and recommending budgetary reallocations, he is steering a battleship; he is limited in reality to making tiny changes, a little bit at a time, all of which are subject to approval of the legislators, and all of which depend on what amounts to a consensus approval of the echelons of bureaucrats below him who can just passive-aggressively wait him out.

When it comes to big changes, Presidents can only jump on existing bandwagons already in motion, perhaps tilting the balance, and then try to take credit.

As an example, in the revisionist history we all learn, a big light bulb went on over J.F.K.'s head, and he said, "Let's go to the Moon!" It didn't happen like that. There was a groundswell of interest in a manned Moon mission starting in the 1950s, long before his involvement, then with Sputnik, fear of technological inferiority to the Communists provided the motivation for legislators to fund it. It wasn't his idea any more than supporting "Freedom Fighters" in Soviet-occupied Afghanistan was Reagan's.


it indicates where they and their party stands. of course, their advisers are picked by them.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:

Not really. The legislators have much more impact. The president just executes, and they have a vast staff of experts to advise them. As to policy and recommending budgetary reallocations, he is steering a battleship; he is limited in reality to making tiny changes, a little bit at a time, all of which are subject to approval of the legislators, and all of which depend on what amounts to a consensus approval of the echelons of bureaucrats below him who can just passive-aggressively wait him out.

When it comes to big changes, Presidents can only jump on existing bandwagons already in motion, perhaps tilting the balance, and then try to take credit.

As an example, in the revisionist history we all learn, a big light bulb went on over J.F.K.'s head, and he said, "Let's go to the Moon!" It didn't happen like that. There was a groundswell of interest in a manned Moon mission starting in the 1950s, long before his involvement, then with Sputnik, fear of technological inferiority to the Communists provided the motivation for legislators to fund it. It wasn't his idea any more than supporting "Freedom Fighters" in Soviet-occupied Afghanistan was Reagan's.


it indicates where they and their party stands. of course, their advisers are picked by them.

A party's "political platform" and what they will actually do or change are two entirely different things, particularly when it comes to domestic issues, in which they actually have far less influence (other than their veto).

Obama talked a lot of shit about climate change and how horrible it was that the stupid, ignorant Republican deniers hadn't done anything about it, and that was a major issue last election. Nevertheless, once he got in office, he didn't do squat, even with an overwhelming majority in Congress his first two years. It just wasn't actually a priority for him, despite what he said (either that or he sold out).

Even with that legislative majority, and a popular majority view that the standing constraints on stem cell research were a bit too restrictive, he only managed to make a tiny change (after his big show of opening the flood gates, he signed the Dickey-Wicker amendment the next day, which put most of the same restrictions back in place, unbeknownst to his supporters because the mainstream media didn't cover it).

He did go forward with his health care change crusade, with less than 50% support, and look what happened. Speaking of abortions. :lol:

What I would like is for these debates is:

1. A totally objective "Bullshit Buzzer", and every time one of the candidates says something substantially untrue, the Bullshit Buzzer gets buzzed, and they have to correct themselves.

2. The questions should not be made up, chosen, or asked, by TV newscasters, most of whom have serious bias, but by objective, non-media parties agreed to both candidates.

3. None of the bullshit analysis after the debate, where the biased news programs all try to create the illusion that their favorite candidate "won the debate", regardless of the actual outcome.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:

A party's "political platform" and what they will actually do or change are two entirely different things, particularly when it comes to domestic issues, in which they actually have far less influence (other than their veto).


obviously not by design. they are supposed to do that.

Quote:

1. A totally objective "Bullshit Buzzer", and every time one of the candidates says something substantially untrue, the Bullshit Buzzer gets buzzed, and they have to correct themselves.

2. The questions should not be made up, chosen, or asked, by TV newscasters, most of whom have serious bias, but by objective, non-media parties agreed to both candidates.

3. None of the bullshit analysis after the debate, where the biased news programs all try to create the illusion that their favorite candidate "won the debate", regardless of the actual outcome.


1) we would all like that, but I think it would be hard to implement.
2) my impression is that the parties have a shit load of control already. truth to power people asking would be nice.
3) restricting free speech. go home commie!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
I'm still waiting for a reason to hear politicians debate science.


I guess you must live in one of the few hunter-gatherer societies left on the planet. All the more reason to find about this newfangled "science" thing.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
dmitchell wrote:
I'm still waiting for a reason to hear politicians debate science.


I guess you must live in one of the few hunter-gatherer societies left on the planet. All the more reason to find about this newfangled "science" thing.


It's so cute the way you think science only exists because of government.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
dmitchell wrote:
I'm still waiting for a reason to hear politicians debate science.


I guess you must live in one of the few hunter-gatherer societies left on the planet. All the more reason to find about this newfangled "science" thing.

Teh Scyents! Only Borg teh Scyents!
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obama: "A new American patriotism: America does best when the middle does best".

That's it in a nutshell. A successful society is one with a big, fat, healthy middle - or "prey" as they are known to people like Bane.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two blowhards citing bullshit pulled from the air that means nothing... worst presidential debate ever. Do the think that we are really this fucking stupid, that they can't cite any real data or stats, and just stick to pure rhetoric?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Half an hour into it, Obama is getting his ass kicked. He's literally squirming.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Half an hour into it, Obama is getting his ass kicked. He's literally squirming.


And if you ask an Obama supporter, he'll talk about how bad Romney is getting his ass kicked. This is your bias speaking. All I know is that both of them are just re-stating the same tired rhetoric over and over without going into any specific detail, making the whole thing absolutely pointless.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This debate needs some Terence McKenna. :lol:
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at Obama's body language talking about banks, hes smiling at his own internal thoughts while talking something else, AKA he's lying.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obama is getting spanked. I didn't know Romney had this in him, but he seems to be in his element.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boring!

And
ratmonkey wrote:
All I know is that both of them are just re-stating the same tired rhetoric over and over without going into any specific detail, making the whole thing absolutely pointless.
++
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I see happening here is that, in this forum, Obama can't lie without getting called out on it. The three or four times he has tried it, he has been busted. He's definitely on the defensive, and he's losing practically all the fact-based arguments.

Facts may not be important to the liberal pundits who will spin the outcome, but anybody watching who has an ounce of brains can see what's happening.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Obama is getting spanked. I didn't know Romney had this in him, but he seems to be in his element.


BoneKracker 4 years ago wrote:
I give this one to McCain.
I'm kind of surprised. It was like watching some pup getting schooled.


Déjà vu. :wink:
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to have evened out between them in the end.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Obama is getting spanked. I didn't know Romney had this in him, but he seems to be in his element.


BoneKracker 4 years ago wrote:
I give this one to McCain.
I'm kind of surprised. It was like watching some pup getting schooled.


Déjà vu. :wink:
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obama was backpeddaling whole debate, but now Romney is loosing his cool.

Obama: "I will take advice from anybody as long as ... (pause) ... <insert something politically correct>".

He can't say "as long as my masters approve of it" :lol:
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I caught part of Romney's last routine. Was he hopping up and down like that throughout? Serious WTF right there.

ratmonkey wrote:
both of them are just re-stating the same tired rhetoric over and over without going into any specific detail, making the whole thing absolutely pointless.
This must be the first debate you've seen, or the first one you've paid attention to. What I hate more is when they discuss it afterward.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I noticed that too, he's going to be mocked mercilessly for that alone. The hopping, I mean.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mostly dull... Obama brought out his usual strawmen and pitifully attacked them. When Obama tried to bring up BIG OIL and their EVIL TAX BREAK, Romney nailed him by showing how Obama dumped 50 years worth of the tax credits on Solyndra et al and the result was pure failure.

"I have a friend who says, you don't pick winners and losers, you just pick losers."
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