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sugar
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:32 am    Post subject: Republicans Lie About ‘Support Our Troops’ Reply with quote

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Republicans Lie About ‘Support Our Troops’
For a decade, Republicans have been screaming at Americans to “support our troops.”
But, they don’t really support our troops. Their constant chanting was originally code to support the Republican administration and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
If the Republicans truly wanted to support the troops, they would have demanded—early in the wars—better armament and vehicles for the troops. Troops in Iraq had to “up-armor” their Humvees with their own ingenuity and money because Congress failed to appropriate enough protection.

The Republicans should have been outraged that after field medics performed extraordinary service to keep wounded from dying that the Walter Reed National Military Medical Center was negligent in providing health care. It took a Washington Post investigative series and actions by the Obama administration, not the Bush–Cheney administration, to straighten out that mess.

American civilians sent millions of packages of everything from soap to towels to shaving lotion for the troops because Congress didn’t provide many of the basic necessities.

And now the Republicans have blocked the Veterans Job Corps bill in the Senate. That bill would have provided $1 billion over five years to hire 20,000 recent veterans by giving them priority in jobs as first responders. It would also have provided career advisers for the veterans. That bill would have helped not just veterans, but all Americans by strengthening fire, police, and first aid/paramedic assistance.


http://pubrecord.org/commentary/10573/republicans-about-support-troops/
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What the fuck? You're so far out of your league it isn't even funny. Civilians don't send care packages because we need things, they send them because they fucking care. Out in Iraq I had all the shit I needed, and if I needed more, there was a PX inside this tent. Units regularly made stops on the base to buy more supplies. And they're cheap, and we get paid a good deal to be out there. No fucking Marine wakes up in the morning and thinks, "Gee, I wonder if I'll be able to afford shaving cream this week." But when we got care packages we thought, "Hey, this is a nice thought..."

Now let's talk about body armor. Yes, I do recall an issue getting this passed through congress. And it wasn't the Republicans who were to blame.

EDIT: Wait a minute, you're just talking about Humvee armor and not the flack jacket SAPI plates that got held up. The writer is appalled that the military had to armor these Humvees "on our own ingenuity?" How the fuck do you think everything happens?!
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there a special name for this logical fallacy where fall into nothingness with a seemingly endless tower of turtles after turtles, nothing but turtles, next to you because you moved the goalpost so far, you pushed it over the edge of the world?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
EDIT: Wait a minute, you're just talking about Humvee armor and not the flack jacket SAPI plates that got held up. The writer is appalled that the military had to armor these Humvees "on our own ingenuity?" How the fuck do you think everything happens?!


I assume the author things those guys should have had the right tools for the job to begin with.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
EDIT: Wait a minute, you're just talking about Humvee armor and not the flack jacket SAPI plates that got held up. The writer is appalled that the military had to armor these Humvees "on our own ingenuity?" How the fuck do you think everything happens?!


I assume the author things those guys should have had the right tools for the job to begin with.

Each war is different and presents its own unique set of challenges. Iraq was the first war where roadside bombs and city ambushes became a problem. Up-armor was developed to counter this, although that was more of a temporary measure. The more permanent solution was the MRAP. We had one take a direct hit with an RPG. Everyone inside survived.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although I like Domino's Cheese-Burst pizza, it is a bit heavy to eat in single sitting. Especially if you have the whole pizza to yourself.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar and I are talking about war and shit exploding, and the best thing you can bring up is pizza.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ordered pizza anyway. Classic hand-tossed with keema-dopyaza and extra chunky chicken.

:burp:
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pizza aside, the article is really about the Veterans Job Corps bill

Quote:
And now the Republicans have blocked the Veterans Job Corps bill in the Senate. That bill would have provided $1 billion over five years to hire 20,000 recent veterans by giving them priority in jobs as first responders. It would also have provided career advisers for the veterans. That bill would have helped not just veterans, but all Americans by strengthening fire, police, and first aid/paramedic assistance.


Quote:
One billion dollars. Fully funded. That’s what the bill called for. A billion dollars to help combat veterans. You know, the ones the Republicans sent into war in Iraq that we later learned was a war built upon lies.
Here’s another statistic. The cost of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan has already cost Americans $2.3–$2.7 trillion, according to a Brown University analysis of war spending. That’s not even the total cost. The analysts believe the war will exceed $4 trillion by the time all costs, including $1 trillion in interest payments, are figured in. That total expense is more than 4,000 times more than the Democrats asked for to help returning veterans. And, that $4 trillion, generously pushed by a war-mongering Congress, never met even the barest of financial constraints the Republicans put upon a bill to help the veterans they sent into battle.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
I ordered pizza anyway. Classic hand-tossed with keema-dopyaza and extra chunky chicken.

:burp:

Hand tossed hey. Sounds feral. That's my input to this Troll-off.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it was quite good.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering that most American fire departments and police departments already have huge waiting lists, frequently attracting over 1000 applicants for less than 10 jobs, you don't think that money could be used helping soldiers get jobs in other sectors?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're treating a symptom and not the cause. Programs like these remind me of bleeding people to try to make them well. I think the solution is to get the government out of trying to compensate for unfair circumstances. So as attractive as this program is to me, I think it operates on a flawed premise.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like to thank the Danish people for their care packages to support the illegal invasion of Iraq! In particular the snowploughs they sent helped a lot to save the lives of a few babies for a few days.

Next time when you find a care package from a Spanish speaking Greek mama in a US American war zone, you know it came from me with love. Because, I care.

And Oblabla gets a chocolate bar.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
I think you're treating a symptom and not the cause. Programs like these remind me of bleeding people to try to make them well. I think the solution is to get the government out of trying to compensate for unfair circumstances. So as attractive as this program is to me, I think it operates on a flawed premise.


no one is claiming it's a solution, but it would do a lot of good.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
I think you're treating a symptom and not the cause. Programs like these remind me of bleeding people to try to make them well. I think the solution is to get the government out of trying to compensate for unfair circumstances. So as attractive as this program is to me, I think it operates on a flawed premise.


You are correct and it a correct response to my response to sugar. I meant to say 'better used to' in response to sugars blind insiatance that whenever a Republican says anything it is wrong. I wanted him to think about the implications of shunting a billion dollars into employment in a sector that already has way too many people who want to do the job. Not only is it a bad policy in general, but also illustrates that giving money to [politically favored group A] so they can become [politically favored group B (members of which are typically more union libs than soldiers are)] is misguided.

Sorry about the confusion. Most of my formatting and other errors are due to the difficulty I have typing a response on a text field in my phone. PITA.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bogamol wrote:
Considering that most American fire departments and police departments already have huge waiting lists, frequently attracting over 1000 applicants for less than 10 jobs, you don't think that money could be used helping soldiers get jobs in other sectors?


'first responder' training is medical training given to police and firefighters. Since firefighters are generally volunteer positions, I guess providing this training is a way to get guys into volunteer fire service work, or the police force.

In any case, the part of the bill I'm focusing on is

Quote:
It would also have provided career advisers for the veterans.


Which is what you mention in your post above.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
I think you're treating a symptom and not the cause. Programs like these remind me of bleeding people to try to make them well. I think the solution is to get the government out of trying to compensate for unfair circumstances. So as attractive as this program is to me, I think it operates on a flawed premise.


no one is claiming it's a solution, but it would do a lot of good.


How would it do any good to add a crap ton of additional workers qualified to work in a sector that is condensing and economizing?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
bogamol wrote:
Considering that most American fire departments and police departments already have huge waiting lists, frequently attracting over 1000 applicants for less than 10 jobs, you don't think that money could be used helping soldiers get jobs in other sectors?


'first responder' training is medical training given to police and firefighters. Since firefighters are generally volunteer positions, I guess providing this training is a way to get guys into volunteer fire service work, or the police force.

In any case, the part of the bill I'm focusing on is

Quote:
It would also have provided career advisers for the veterans.


Which is what you mention in your post above.


You are trolling without adequate knowledge of ANY of the systems you are trying to fix.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bogamol wrote:
sugar wrote:
bogamol wrote:
Considering that most American fire departments and police departments already have huge waiting lists, frequently attracting over 1000 applicants for less than 10 jobs, you don't think that money could be used helping soldiers get jobs in other sectors?


'first responder' training is medical training given to police and firefighters. Since firefighters are generally volunteer positions, I guess providing this training is a way to get guys into volunteer fire service work, or the police force.

In any case, the part of the bill I'm focusing on is

Quote:
It would also have provided career advisers for the veterans.


Which is what you mention in your post above.


You are trolling without adequate knowledge of ANY of the systems you are trying to fix.


http://www.nfpa.org/itemDetail.asp?categoryID=955&itemID=23688&URL=Research/Fire%20statistics/The%20U.S.%20fire%20service&cookie_test=1

70% of the fire service is volunteer. The waiting lists are for volunteers. If a first responder course can get a guy a job as a volunteer, then it will at least keep him motivated while he looks for paid employment. Something to keep you fit and interested.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ichbinsisyphos wrote:
Is there a special name for this logical fallacy where fall into nothingness with a seemingly endless tower of turtles after turtles, nothing but turtles, next to you because you moved the goalpost so far, you pushed it over the edge of the world?

the formal name is "endor, unicorns, and leprechauns," but in short, it's called "anything sugar posts."
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big dave wrote:
ichbinsisyphos wrote:
Is there a special name for this logical fallacy where fall into nothingness with a seemingly endless tower of turtles after turtles, nothing but turtles, next to you because you moved the goalpost so far, you pushed it over the edge of the world?

the formal name is "endor, unicorns, and leprechauns," but in short, it's called "anything sugar posts."


*rolls eyes like a proletariat at a bourgeois dinner party*
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
big dave wrote:
ichbinsisyphos wrote:
Is there a special name for this logical fallacy where fall into nothingness with a seemingly endless tower of turtles after turtles, nothing but turtles, next to you because you moved the goalpost so far, you pushed it over the edge of the world?

the formal name is "endor, unicorns, and leprechauns," but in short, it's called "anything sugar posts."


*rolls eyes like a proletariat at a bourgeois dinner party*

free cake for all!

you know, i once knew a guy who thought it would be a good idea if the government gave everyone $20,000 a year just to be alive. the facepalming started soon after.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sugar was not the one trying to make this thread about care packages.

Btw, a member of the Proletariat is called a Proletarian.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big dave wrote:

free cake for all!

you know, i once knew a guy who thought it would be a good idea if the government gave everyone $20,000 a year just to be alive. the facepalming started soon after.


was this guy actually Friedrich von Hayek, who was an advocate of the Austrian school, and yet supported a universal basic income?

I would have listened to him instead of face-palming.
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