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aCOSwt
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:10 am    Post subject: US Congress and... Drunken Sailors Reply with quote

OK... as usual : Political comments certainly matter but... not to me ! :P
Only interested in how, in the quote, the style dramatically adds to the content.
Richard W. Fisher, Comments to the Harvard Club of New York City on Monetary Policy, Sep 19, 2012 wrote:

I am tempted to draw upon the hackneyed comparison that likens our dissolute Congress to drunken sailors. But patriots among you might take umbrage, noting that a comparison with Congress in this case might be deemed an insult to drunken sailors.

From the remote point of view (of a sometimes drunk, sometimes sailor... :lol: ), I read no less than 3 paradoxes in that. I just cannot go further in their interpretation because I don't know the targeted audience.
Who can help ?
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pjp
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:41 pm    Post subject: Re: US Congress and... Drunken Sailors Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
I just cannot go further in their interpretation because I don't know the targeted audience.
Who can help ?
The clue is in "Harvard Club." :P
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think he is having a hard time understanding the "drunken sailor" metaphor.

By "sailor" here, we refer not to a part-time sailor who enjoys weekends aboard his skiff, and perhaps has difficulty navigating back into the harbor after too many margaritas. We are talking about professional sailors: men who sail for a living. They are almost always at sea, without opportunity to spend their wages. When ashore, they spend money like there is no tomorrow (booze, entertainment, prostitutes, whatever strikes their drunken fancy).

Just for ichbinsisyphos: Congress may be like drunken sailors, but Obama is like a crack-whore with a stolen credit card. :wink:
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:15 am    Post subject: Re: US Congress and... Drunken Sailors Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
aCOSwt wrote:
I just cannot go further in their interpretation because I don't know the targeted audience.
Who can help ?
The clue is in "Harvard Club." :P

I was invited to join the University Club, but declined. I figured if they wanted me, they must be getting desperate, and that it was therefore not worth joining.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:13 am    Post subject: Re: US Congress and... Drunken Sailors Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
I was invited to join the University Club, but declined. I figured if they wanted me, they must be getting desperate, and that it was therefore not worth joining.
Your logical reasoning is excellent.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

:lol:
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aCOSwt
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

as usual... tl-drers, dr ! :P
BoneKracker wrote:
I think he is having a hard time understanding the "drunken sailor" metaphor.

YESSS !
Well... not exactly. Figuring it out would fit better.
BoneKracker wrote:
By "sailor" here, we refer not to a part-time sailor who enjoys weekends aboard his skiff, and perhaps has difficulty navigating back into the harbor after too many margaritas. We are talking about professional sailors: men who sail for a living. They are almost always at sea, without opportunity to spend their wages. When ashore, they spend money like there is no tomorrow (booze, entertainment, prostitutes, whatever strikes their drunken fancy).

:? Are you sure ?
Well... I mean : How can you be so sure ?
Why do you need to choose one single meaning ? Why can't you keep both opened ? At least for the time of the analysis.

Go on BK, go on, you are on the right track. Have a hard time too figuring out the whole quote. Keeping all doors opened to whatever interpretation.
Do not decide yet ! Do not try to understand it ! Just try to figure out. Question the quote ! Just suspend your judgment for a while !

I hold what I quoted as a model of pure polyvocality, well I mean the typical set of sentences that who has a brain and some particular affect will understand white, who has a brain and another particular affect will understand black and... who has got ears to hear will... hear !

Bullshit ? aCOSwt rambling again ? Well... possibly

However... When I sometimes end my contributions with a "QHAAA", Fisher gives himself the warning, one of the many possible indications that what one is going to say is definitely polyvocal :

Why the hell would a well educated person, high ranking official, speaking to other well educated people and possibly high ranking as well, say something hackneyed insisting explicitly on the fact it is hackneyed ?

OK ! "Because he is dumb talking bullshit to a bunch of dumb people" is a possible rational understanding. If you believe this then... fair enough. Stop reading. You are right and you will indeed loose your time continuing to read.

If, instead of this, you suspend your judgment and go on questioning, you might get access to something... well... just... clever !
pjp wrote:
aCOSwt wrote:
I just cannot go further in their interpretation because I don't know the targeted audience.
Who can help ?
The clue is in "Harvard Club."

The link you suggest can certainly give a good reason for suspending judgment on the meaning of the "drunken-sailor" metaphor.

It unfortunately does not help me. What I wanted to know is if the members of the Harvard Club are in a vast majority extremely patriots, not patriots, no more no less patriots than any other American ?
And more : If they share a common and particular understanding of patriotism.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, but that is not what you asked!
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Ah, but that is not what you asked!

:lol:
Yesss too !

Look! as long as you did not know precisely what I wanted, you managed to find an answer.
And, even if your contribution was not actually useful to me, it was interesting indeed.

Now that you know precisely what I want to know... I get... no answer.

Exactly like Google, I get tons of answers when I do not ask what I want.
As soon as I word precisely what I want, it just... suggests that I should search for something else...

A bit the old BK way... don't you prefer watch a mime or something... :lol:
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ aCOSwt:

What the fuck are you rambling about? :?

Not too long for you?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He is being a verbal mime; you must guess what he is trying to communicate.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
What the fuck are you rambling about? :?

aCOSwt wrote:
Bullshit ? aCOSwt rambling again ? Well... possibly

Old School wrote:
Not too long for you?

aCOSwt wrote:
as usual... tl-drers, dr !

I... do not feel that much concerned.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
He is being a verbal mime;

Yet another categorical judgment but... OK... this one is not completely off track.
BoneKracker wrote:
you must guess what he is trying to communicate.

must and guess are both wrong !
I'd prefer : Feel free to discover all the ambiguity in his communication.

BTW, the object here is not my communication. But Fisher's one.
I just try to give clues. Refraining from giving the answers.

On a side note, (totally off topic) (But not that much) I find amazing to realize that contributors in OTW apparently prefer being insulted than being invited to wonder. :?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
He is being a verbal mime; you must guess what he is trying to communicate.
:lol: :lol:
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am sure the ideas, reasoning, logic, and facts behind aCOSwt's sentences are profound, deep, and true. And no one will know what he's saying.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerwylie wrote:
I am sure the ideas, reasoning, logic, and facts behind aCOSwt's sentences are profound, deep, and true. And no one will know what he's saying.


How can you be sure?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slonocode wrote:
tylerwylie wrote:
I am sure the ideas, reasoning, logic, and facts behind aCOSwt's sentences are profound, deep, and true. And no one will know what he's saying.


How can you be sure?
I have not come up with a way to test this yet. Stay posted.
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richk449
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While his point is perfectly clear, it appears he chose a couple of words that don't make sense:

Quote:
I am tempted to draw upon the hackneyed comparison that likens our dissolute Congress to drunken sailors.

I am tempted to compare congress to drunken sailors.*

Quote:
But patriots among you might take umbrage,

Those of you who care about our country (and therefore congress) might object,

Quote:
noting that a comparison with Congress in this case might be deemed an insult to drunken sailors.

noting that the comparison offends drunken sailors.

*The inclusion of the hackneyed adjective is irrelevant.

So he is effectively saying:
Quote:
I am tempted to compare congress to drunken sailors. Those of you who care about congress might object, noting that the comparison offends drunken sailors.

It is a bit contradictory to claim that the people who worry about congress will object to disparaging sailors.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HEy ! The level has suddenly && significantly risen !

richk449, congrats ! You get the first step right.
But refrain from concluding yet.
I think there are two other steps before the full understanding.

Tip : You'll find one clue about the second step following the link pjp suggested.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drunken sailors do provide a service.
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aCOSwt
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
Drunken sailors do provide a service.

Yes ! Metaphors ! :lol:

Unfortunately this service does not seem equally provided to everybody. :twisted:
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Split off (and locked) ichbinsisyphos' poor choice of, let's call it humor.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
Now that you know precisely what I want to know... I get... no answer.
aCOSwt wrote:
HEy ! The level has suddenly && significantly risen !

richk449, congrats ! You get the first step right.
But refrain from concluding yet.
I think there are two other steps before the full understanding.

Tip : You'll find one clue about the second step following the link pjp suggested.
Trust me when I say that knowing what you are looking for has not become apparent.

My next best guess is "the type of person likely to join or be invited to join" the Harvard Club. Intepreting what that type of person is will depend on the interpreter's life experiences and values.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Split off (and locked) ichbinsisyphos' poor choice of, let's call it humor.
Do you think this is fair to acoswt? Now he will continue to look for meaning where there is none. This can easily lead to an obsession and can cause him to waste the best years of his life.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
Old School wrote:
Drunken sailors do provide a service.

Yes ! Metaphors ! :lol:

Unfortunately this service does not seem equally provided to everybody. :twisted:

Well, the most common implication of the "drunken sailor" metaphor is that of profligate spending. This meaning is also hinted at by his use of the word "dissolute".

However, by analogy, drunken sailors are also reckless, irrational, lascivious, violent, and so on. So these characteristics are also suggested.
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