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Do you have a dread or hatred of Islam and therefore, a fear and dislike of all Muslims
Yes
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 9%  [ 2 ]
No
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 90%  [ 19 ]
Total Votes : 21

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Prenj
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:

a. point to where in the Qur'an it say's that those that leave Islam are punished physically?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

Knock yourself out.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
sugar wrote:

a. point to where in the Qur'an it say's that those that leave Islam are punished physically?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

Knock yourself out.


Quote:
The Qur'an itself does not prescribe any earthly punishment for apostasy;

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
The Qur'an itself does not prescribe any earthly punishment for apostasy;


Be kind and explain that at the nearest mosque.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
Prenj wrote:
sugar wrote:

a. point to where in the Qur'an it say's that those that leave Islam are punished physically?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

Knock yourself out.


Quote:
The Qur'an itself does not prescribe any earthly punishment for apostasy;


Quote:
The majority of Muslim scholars hold to the traditional view that apostasy is punishable by death or imprisonment until repentance, at least for adult men of sound mind.


It seems that the scholars aren't reading the Qur'an correctly then.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GabrielYYZ wrote:
It seems that the scholars aren't reading the Qur'an correctly then.


people are free to interpret ideas in any way they wish. I don't care. It's not the ideas that should be held accountable, but the individuals. You can't hold others accountable for the actions of another.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
GabrielYYZ wrote:
It seems that the scholars aren't reading the Qur'an correctly then.


people are free to interpret ideas in any way they wish. I don't care. It's not the ideas that should be held accountable, but the individuals. You can't hold others accountable for the actions of another.


So we hold imams and clergy accountable, along with any people practicing it. Isn't that what everybody is saying, and you are accusing them of being islamophobic? Or were you just so eager to "be right" that you bit yourself in the ass?

BTW, Hadiths are practically as authoritative as Quran itself.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
GabrielYYZ wrote:
It seems that the scholars aren't reading the Qur'an correctly then.


people are free to interpret ideas in any way they wish. I don't care. It's not the ideas that should be held accountable, but the individuals. You can't hold others accountable for the actions of another.


Ideas aren't lost in the ether, people hold ideas and those ideas influence their behaviour. If their behaviour is demonstrably destructive, then they should be held accountable and that's the problem with Islam and muslims. They say "this is a peaceful religion" but you see an Ayatollah emitting (declaring?) a fatwah against Salman Rushdie and a good chunk of muslims rioting over a book, looking for the chance to kill him to, presumably, make Allah happy.

ps: or killing Theo Van Gogh for making a video.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
So we hold imams and clergy accountable, along with any people practicing it. Isn't that what everybody is saying, and you are accusing them of being islamophobic? Or were you just so eager to "be right" that you bit yourself in the ass?


there's a big difference in wanting to hold Islam accountable, and holding individual Muslims accountable for their actions.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GabrielYYZ wrote:
sugar wrote:
GabrielYYZ wrote:
It seems that the scholars aren't reading the Qur'an correctly then.


people are free to interpret ideas in any way they wish. I don't care. It's not the ideas that should be held accountable, but the individuals. You can't hold others accountable for the actions of another.


Ideas aren't lost in the ether, people hold ideas and those ideas influence their behaviour. If their behaviour is demonstrably destructive, then they should be held accountable and that's the problem with Islam and muslims. They say "this is a peaceful religion" but you see an Ayatollah emitting (declaring?) a fatwah against Salman Rushdie and a good chunk of muslims rioting over a book, looking for the chance to kill him to, presumably, make Allah happy.

ps: or killing Theo Van Gogh for making a video.


and the man that attempts to kill Salman Rushdie will and should be held accountable for his actions.

Why am I holding Islam accountable again? for convincing someone that they should do this?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
GabrielYYZ wrote:
sugar wrote:
GabrielYYZ wrote:
It seems that the scholars aren't reading the Qur'an correctly then.


people are free to interpret ideas in any way they wish. I don't care. It's not the ideas that should be held accountable, but the individuals. You can't hold others accountable for the actions of another.


Ideas aren't lost in the ether, people hold ideas and those ideas influence their behaviour. If their behaviour is demonstrably destructive, then they should be held accountable and that's the problem with Islam and muslims. They say "this is a peaceful religion" but you see an Ayatollah emitting (declaring?) a fatwah against Salman Rushdie and a good chunk of muslims rioting over a book, looking for the chance to kill him to, presumably, make Allah happy.

ps: or killing Theo Van Gogh for making a video.


and the man that attempts to kill Salman Rushdie will and should be held accountable for his actions.

Why am I holding Islam accountable again? for convincing someone that they should do this?


For being the ideology that allows/approves/encourages those kinds of actions.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GabrielYYZ wrote:
For being the ideology that allows/approves/encourages those kinds of actions.


So you hold a man accountable for the actions of another, even while you're holding that man accountable?

Do you also hold the far right gun lobby for the actions of Timothy McVeigh?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
Winson90 wrote:
Do you oppose the qu-ranic mandate to kill nonMuslims and apostates?


Quote:
The Qur'an itself does not prescribe any earthly punishment for apostasy;


Okay, but my questions to you are still unanswered, so I might as well add another;
Which Muslims reject Bukari as being an unreliable commenter on the authority of hadiths?

And also, the eschatology thing, how about an answer.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
Prenj wrote:
So we hold imams and clergy accountable, along with any people practicing it. Isn't that what everybody is saying, and you are accusing them of being islamophobic? Or were you just so eager to "be right" that you bit yourself in the ass?


there's a big difference in wanting to hold Islam accountable, and holding individual Muslims accountable for their actions.


I am not sure what it means to hold ideas accountable. However, if an idea or philosophy is often cited as justification for violence, and that justification is a reasonable given the philosophy, then that philosophy should be condemned as one that should not be followed. I just don't see much redeemable about a book that proscribes horrible punishments for mild things. it's illiberal. It's 7th century morality (I think essentially the same thing about the bible, though it seems to be slightly better).
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
Prenj wrote:
So we hold imams and clergy accountable, along with any people practicing it. Isn't that what everybody is saying, and you are accusing them of being islamophobic? Or were you just so eager to "be right" that you bit yourself in the ass?


there's a big difference in wanting to hold Islam accountable, and holding individual Muslims accountable for their actions.


Since there is no official authority in Islam (as in The Pope) it is up to INDIVIDUAL to interpret and practice it. That doesn't mean that there are 1 bn flavors of islam, since people without clue still need "leaders" and the guys who are "telling them" what to do. It's like you and government.

But the ultimate responsibility, according to Quran is with the individual, so why shouldn't we hold the individual accountable?

What you are constantly projecting on other people here is that everybody has a problem with EVERY muslim on planet, which is not true, I personally know loads of people who are muslims for themselves, and have no beef with me drinking a beer at the pub if they are fasting for ramadan. It's our respective thing.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The real "Islamophobes" are the PC brigade scrota who want to appease them because they're afraid of them and naively think they won't immediately move down the list to the next of a million reasons to despise and hate us and want to subjugate or kill us. You see, we are kuffars and infidels.
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pjp wrote:
I didn't misquote you, I just misunderstood you.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
sugar wrote:
Prenj wrote:
So we hold imams and clergy accountable, along with any people practicing it. Isn't that what everybody is saying, and you are accusing them of being islamophobic? Or were you just so eager to "be right" that you bit yourself in the ass?


there's a big difference in wanting to hold Islam accountable, and holding individual Muslims accountable for their actions.


Since there is no official authority in Islam (as in The Pope) it is up to INDIVIDUAL to interpret and practice it. That doesn't mean that there are 1 bn flavors of islam, since people without clue still need "leaders" and the guys who are "telling them" what to do. It's like you and government.

But the ultimate responsibility, according to Quran is with the individual, so why shouldn't we hold the individual accountable?

What you are constantly projecting on other people here is that everybody has a problem with EVERY muslim on planet, which is not true, I personally know loads of people who are muslims for themselves, and have no beef with me drinking a beer at the pub if they are fasting for ramadan. It's our respective thing.


Virtually all Muslims I have met in person, I have met at a pub, drinking with them.
Exceptions to that are refugees from Kurdistan and Bosnia that have resettled nearby.

Would it by fair or accurate to say that before the fall of the caliphate, there was a "pope-like" authority?
In Shia, isn't there a similar figure, probably in Iran now?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
sugar wrote:
Prenj wrote:
So we hold imams and clergy accountable, along with any people practicing it. Isn't that what everybody is saying, and you are accusing them of being islamophobic? Or were you just so eager to "be right" that you bit yourself in the ass?


there's a big difference in wanting to hold Islam accountable, and holding individual Muslims accountable for their actions.


Since there is no official authority in Islam (as in The Pope) it is up to INDIVIDUAL to interpret and practice it. That doesn't mean that there are 1 bn flavors of islam, since people without clue still need "leaders" and the guys who are "telling them" what to do. It's like you and government.

But the ultimate responsibility, according to Quran is with the individual, so why shouldn't we hold the individual accountable?

What you are constantly projecting on other people here is that everybody has a problem with EVERY muslim on planet, which is not true, I personally know loads of people who are muslims for themselves, and have no beef with me drinking a beer at the pub if they are fasting for ramadan. It's our respective thing.


that's pretty much my point. Finally.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
The real "Islamophobes" are the PC brigade scrota who want to appease them because they're afraid of them and naively think they won't immediately move down the list to the next of a million reasons to despise and hate us and want to subjugate or kill us. You see, we are kuffars and infidels.


It's not what we hate that will ruin us, but what we love.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:

that's pretty much my point. Finally.


Is it?

Should individual republicans, for example, be held accountable for their actions, or is blaming all for a set of commonly held beliefs a good idea?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
sugar wrote:
Prenj wrote:
So we hold imams and clergy accountable, along with any people practicing it. Isn't that what everybody is saying, and you are accusing them of being islamophobic? Or were you just so eager to "be right" that you bit yourself in the ass?


there's a big difference in wanting to hold Islam accountable, and holding individual Muslims accountable for their actions.


I am not sure what it means to hold ideas accountable. However, if an idea or philosophy is often cited as justification for violence, and that justification is a reasonable given the philosophy, then that philosophy should be condemned as one that should not be followed. I just don't see much redeemable about a book that proscribes horrible punishments for mild things. it's illiberal. It's 7th century morality (I think essentially the same thing about the bible, though it seems to be slightly better).


Values drives behaviour. Fine. The clothes I wear, the way I interact with people, the things I say, are all part of my behaviour, and are mostly driven (as far as the behaviours that may define my culture) by some value system. A value system can come from many sources for an individual. They may be explicit, such as a religious value system, or a corporate value system, or a professional value system, or somewhat implicit, like the values that come from being part of the FOSS community (free as in speech!) etc.

The question is, what drives values in an individual? These values come from a set of core assumptions that each individual makes about the world and how the world works. If I believe in this religion, then I will be a good person. If I work hard, then I will get rewarded for it. If I contribute to the community, then the community benefits. These base assumptions, for the most part, don't come from religion. These core assumptions must create a platform for which the religious value system can stand on.

This is why it's difficult to de-programme cult members,, because you need to change their core assumptions in order to change their value system. This is why the value system in Christianity is constantly changing, because the core assumptions that people make about the world change, and so the value system must change. This is why it's difficult to adopt management processes from different cultures. Without an understanding of the core assumptions that really drive people, then the process will fail.

The discussion about Islam needs to be about the core assumptions these individuals make. Just considering the value system will end up being counter productive.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darth Marley wrote:
sugar wrote:

that's pretty much my point. Finally.


Is it?

Should individual republicans, for example, be held accountable for their actions, or is blaming all for a set of commonly held beliefs a good idea?


Yes, the first option. Pretty much.

It doesn't make for a good troll, mind you.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
Winson90 wrote:
Do you oppose the qu-ranic mandate to kill nonMuslims and apostates?


Quote:
The Qur'an itself does not prescribe any earthly punishment for apostasy;


Quote:


If we turn to the Qur`an and authentic ahadith after freeing ourselves from the extraneous influences of the type I have mentioned above, the situation becomes crystal clear: there is no legal punishment for apostasy in Islam, whether death or any other. The Qur`an and authentic ahadith teach us to treat apostates like other kuffar, whose treatment varies from kindness to killing depending on the circumstances and on the degree of hostility they show towards Islam and Muslims.


Quote:

A person commits apostasy (irtidad) or becomes an apostate (murtadd) if he describes himself a Muslim and then at a later time takes one of the following actions in a public way:

1) Converts to another religion, e.g. becomes a Christian or Buddhist or Baha`i etc.
2) Rejects a part of the Qur`an after recognizing it to be a part of the Qur`an. For example, all those “Muslims” who opposed the Shari‘ah-based arbitration in family and business disputes in Ontario[1] have become apostates if they knew well that a great part of the Shari‘ah that they opposed is based on the Qur`an. May Allah guide them back to Islam.


and then this gem:
Quote:

a) There is no mandatory death penalty in the Qur`an for any crime.


but

Quote:

In the context of an emphasis on preserving the life of each and every individual the above verse mentions only two crimes for which a person can be killed:

1) Murdering another human being;
2) Spreading mischief (fasad) in the land.

Nowhere else the Qur`an mentions any other crime for which the death penalty is considered. There are, of course, verses that mention killing during a war in the way of God. But that is different from killing as a penalty for a crime. Moreover, in the Qur`anic understanding the objective of even killing in a war is to stop or punish crimes similar to the two mentioned in the above verse -- violence and mischief -- when committed in an organized way by a tribe or nation ((2:191-193, 2:217, 4:88-91 etc)).


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Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also present:
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/
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AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
I also present:
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/


Good site. Quote from there:

Quote:
About pseudonyms :
The prospect of prosecution is very real for a Muslim who leaves Islam, especially if they are present in a Muslim country, like Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Middle East.
According to Sharia, an apostate must be killed. This is given in Sahih Bukhari Hadith.
We do not want to risk death, or have us and our families suffer prosecution.


http://www.apostatesofislam.com/apostates.htm
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got way off islam when I read some afghanistan man said he gladly shot his wife for being in adultury because she being raped. That is honor, how? (this was past yr 2000 bc )

But I find them interesting to watch. What do I not know about them that I do not see...As I can see it, there is _always_ (seldom I say this word) a flipside on a coin.

While this is not a RELIGOUS thread, there are a lot of it related to religion in here...Let me introduce to you King Diamond, anno 1980s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LShuB3Sx9r8

It's an interesting interview from the past and the embodiment of satanism is the opposite...The angle is intriguing to me though.
(note: the under texts are very speedy, but I got the gist of it though...right?)

One of the persons being at this event is a priest too.
I can only find KD to talk about what we, the most of us are thinking, related to religious beliefs
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