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| Do you have a dread or hatred of Islam and therefore, a fear and dislike of all Muslims |
| Yes |
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9% |
[ 2 ] |
| No |
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90% |
[ 19 ] |
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| Total Votes : 21 |
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Muso
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
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 Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | Muso wrote: | Deconstructionism has been one of the worst ideas to come out of the 20th century. A word means exactly what it means, and your attempts to make a rational analysis of Islam into a "phobia" is an example of the destructive and, yes, evil nature of deconstructionism.
I refuse to help your efforts in destroying logic and reason. |
You've never referred to something as a phobia when it wasn't? |
Nope.
I can't stand the term "homophobia" either, especially when it is used to describe people who are intolerant, not afraid of, homosexuality. "Islamaphobia" is a term used by Islamist sympathizers to try and minimize all criticisms of the dangers of Islamism. It's a bogus word.
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aidanjt
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Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Rep. of Ireland
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Muso wrote: | | I can't stand the term "homophobia" either, especially when it is used to describe people who are intolerant, not afraid of, homosexuality. |
There's a *lot* of people who have extreme overreactions (assault, mutilation, murder, etc.) and irrational fear of gay people, because they're of a mindset that if homosexuality was left to its own devices it'd spread and wipe out their ilk. I'd say that's pretty phobic.
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| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 756
Location: EU
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| aidanjt wrote: | | Muso wrote: | | I can't stand the term "homophobia" either, especially when it is used to describe people who are intolerant, not afraid of, homosexuality. |
There's a *lot* of people who have extreme overreactions (assault, mutilation, murder, etc.) and irrational fear of gay people, because they're of a mindset that if homosexuality was left to its own devices it'd spread and wipe out their ilk. I'd say that's pretty phobic. |
listen to santorum speak. remember, santorum isn't some marginalized nut; he wasn't far off winning the republican nomination.
according to him, gay marriage would have serious ramifications for the military (search this for yourself).
according to him, gays, gay marriage and gay normalization would lead to the destruction of the american family.
| Santorum wrote: |
... States do not have the right to destroy the American family. It is your business. It is not fine with me that New York has destroyed marriage. It is not fine with me that New York is setting a template that will cause great division in this country. |
phobic enough for you? sounds like a pretty irrational fear to me, especially given these things haven't happened in canada in the seven odd years gay marriage has been legal. google will find you a number of other santorum zingers. he's afraid, or pretends to be, even though his dubious admission that he has "many gay friends" would suggest otherwise.
on the other side of the coin, my favourite term is "gay agenda".
Last edited by juniper on Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:39 am; edited 5 times in total |
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mdeininger
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Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 1738
Location: University of Tuebingen, Germany
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| John-Boy wrote: | A phobia can be defined as an irrational fear, yes ? Then there's no such
thing as Islamophobia. |
Heh, I know I came a little late to the party but I do like the sleekness of that right there.
The current votes did return some of my faith in humanity though.
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sikpuppy
n00b
Joined: 12 Jun 2012
Posts: 23
Location: Central Coast, NSW
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: |
on the other side of the coin, my favourite term is "gay agenda". |
That's when the waiter brings you the bill. |
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Muso
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| aidanjt wrote: | | because they're of a mindset that if homosexuality was left to its own devices it'd spread and wipe out their ilk. I'd say that's pretty phobic. |
I'd say that's pretty retarded.
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Darth Marley
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| aidanjt wrote: | | Muso wrote: | | I can't stand the term "homophobia" either, especially when it is used to describe people who are intolerant, not afraid of, homosexuality. |
There's a *lot* of people who have extreme overreactions (assault, mutilation, murder, etc.) and irrational fear of gay people, because they're of a mindset that if homosexuality was left to its own devices it'd spread and wipe out their ilk. I'd say that's pretty phobic. |
It may not be an irrational fear of homosexuals, it may be an irrational fear of having some degree of homosexual tendencies.
The projection that one knows why one has a fear or disgust reaction is a problem.
Insisting that one knows the "real reason" asserts taht one can know the inner motives of another.
Some have irrational disgust for certain sexual acts. Many unfortunate heterosexuals are married to partners with such irrational disgust, which also breaks up the family unit.
But disgust is different from fear. |
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juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 756
Location: EU
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Darth Marley wrote: | | aidanjt wrote: | | Muso wrote: | | I can't stand the term "homophobia" either, especially when it is used to describe people who are intolerant, not afraid of, homosexuality. |
There's a *lot* of people who have extreme overreactions (assault, mutilation, murder, etc.) and irrational fear of gay people, because they're of a mindset that if homosexuality was left to its own devices it'd spread and wipe out their ilk. I'd say that's pretty phobic. |
It may not be an irrational fear of homosexuals, it may be an irrational fear of having some degree of homosexual tendencies.
The projection that one knows why one has a fear or disgust reaction is a problem.
Insisting that one knows the "real reason" asserts taht one can know the inner motives of another.
Some have irrational disgust for certain sexual acts. Many unfortunate heterosexuals are married to partners with such irrational disgust, which also breaks up the family unit.
But disgust is different from fear. |
the line gets crossed when you try to enforce your disgust on other people. nobody is saying you have to like gay sex. |
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Darth Marley
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Joined: 25 Jan 2007
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John-Boy
Guru
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Posts: 436
Location: Desperately seeking Moksha in all the wrong places
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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And it sounds like we've got a local demo kicking off around these parts.
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sugar
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16029
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Muso wrote: | Nope.
I can't stand the term "homophobia" either, especially when it is used to describe people who are intolerant, not afraid of, homosexuality. "Islamaphobia" is a term used by Islamist sympathizers to try and minimize all criticisms of the dangers of Islamism. It's a bogus word. |
Fair enough, but it sounds like you at least understand that it is used in such a way. Also, fan != fanatic. Words, their usage and meaning change.
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Darth Marley
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| sugar wrote: |
that depends if they dread ALL Islam or not. |
Which Muslims do they have to not dread?
If the only Muslims they know live in near-by areas which are overtly hostile to non-Muslims, where do we get the Muslims they don't "dread" in order to evade your smear? |
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sugar
Guru
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 579
Location: Morrinsville, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| Darth Marley wrote: | | sugar wrote: |
that depends if they dread ALL Islam or not. |
Which Muslims do they have to not dread?
If the only Muslims they know live in near-by areas which are overtly hostile to non-Muslims, where do we get the Muslims they don't "dread" in order to evade your smear? |
all Muslims, by default.
It's not reasonable to say 'I hate my Chinese neighbour because he uses his circular saw on a Sunday Morning! I hate *all* Chinese so much!'
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Darth Marley
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:49 am Post subject: |
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Is it reasonable or rational then to dislike all Muslims who think that on the final day, Muslims will kill all the Jews?
Or is that irrational.
Oh, and can you find me orthodox Muslims who reject that doctrine? |
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sugar
Guru
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 579
Location: Morrinsville, New Zealand
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Darth Marley
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| sugar wrote: | | Darth Marley wrote: | Is it reasonable or rational then to dislike all Muslims who think that on the final day, Muslims will kill all the Jews?
Or is that irrational.
Oh, and can you find me orthodox Muslims who reject that doctrine? |
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division |
Nope.
Just answer the question rather than demonstrate that your understanding of logic is on par with your understanding of economics and game theory. |
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sugar
Guru
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 579
Location: Morrinsville, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| Darth Marley wrote: | | sugar wrote: | | Darth Marley wrote: | Is it reasonable or rational then to dislike all Muslims who think that on the final day, Muslims will kill all the Jews?
Or is that irrational.
Oh, and can you find me orthodox Muslims who reject that doctrine? |
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division |
Nope.
Just answer the question rather than demonstrate that your understanding of logic is on par with your understanding of economics and game theory. |
A man should be judged on the strength of his character alone.
You ask if it's appropriate to judge a whole section of society based on their beliefs, rather than actually judging them individually by their character?
and then you claim my logic is flawed?
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:36 am Post subject: |
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Isn't a person's character made up partly by their beliefs? And more significantly if those beliefs are a strong "guide" for how to live and treat others?
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lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.
In Loving Memory
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Darth Marley
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| sugar wrote: | | Darth Marley wrote: | | sugar wrote: | | Darth Marley wrote: | Is it reasonable or rational then to dislike all Muslims who think that on the final day, Muslims will kill all the Jews?
Or is that irrational.
Oh, and can you find me orthodox Muslims who reject that doctrine? |
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division |
Nope.
Just answer the question rather than demonstrate that your understanding of logic is on par with your understanding of economics and game theory. |
A man should be judged on the strength of his character alone.
You ask if it's appropriate to judge a whole section of society based on their beliefs, rather than actually judging them individually by their character?
and then you claim my logic is flawed? |
Now you are demonstrating that reading comprehension, as well as an effective understanding of logic, game theory, and economics are outside your skill set.
I have not asked if it is appropriate to judge a whole section of society based on anything.
I have asked if it is rational to fear or dislike people who hold genocidal eschatalogical beliefs, and one such belief in particular.
I have also asked you to find a sect of Muslims that publicly renounce their genocidal eschatology.
Can someone who thinks "Jews are descended from apes and pigs" and will all be killed by good Muslims at the end of time really be said to have a good character?
How does that work? how can you defend the character of anyone who holds that as a belief.
Certainly, some who are culturally Muslim, but somewhat secularized, and not particularly observant might not hold those beliefs.
Are there any examples of such believers who will claim this in public? Or in essays? |
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sugar
Guru
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 579
Location: Morrinsville, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | Isn't a person's character made up partly by their beliefs? And more significantly if those beliefs are a strong "guide" for how to live and treat others? |
absolutely. I couldn't agree more.
An individual chooses his beliefs willingly, and so he, and only he, can be held accountable for his actions, especially those based on his beliefs, religious or otherwise.
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sugar
Guru
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 579
Location: Morrinsville, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| Darth Marley wrote: | Certainly, some who are culturally Muslim, but somewhat secularized, and not particularly observant might not hold those beliefs.
Are there any examples of such believers who will claim this in public? Or in essays? |
Is religious belief the only aspect of culture? What if I work for Microsoft, and assimilate into their corporate culture, and yet, I am also a Muslim? What if I also contribute time towards the FOSS community, because I feel strongly in the free (as in speech) aspect of the FOSS community?
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Darth Marley
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| sugar wrote: | | Darth Marley wrote: | Certainly, some who are culturally Muslim, but somewhat secularized, and not particularly observant might not hold those beliefs.
Are there any examples of such believers who will claim this in public? Or in essays? |
Is religious belief the only aspect of culture? What if I work for Microsoft, and assimilate into their corporate culture, and yet, I am also a Muslim? What if I also contribute time towards the FOSS community, because I feel strongly in the free (as in speech) aspect of the FOSS community? |
If you dealt with this conversation honestly, you would have looked up the answer by now.
Do they not have the Internet where you are posting from?
Hint: if it were merely cultural, few would fear breaking with the belief.
If you devote millions of lines of code to FOSS, but think genocide is divine will, you are not a good person. |
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sugar
Guru
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 579
Location: Morrinsville, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Darth Marley wrote: |
If you dealt with this conversation honestly, you would have looked up the answer by now.
Do they not have the Internet where you are posting from?
Hint: if it were merely cultural, few would fear breaking with the belief.
If you devote millions of lines of code to FOSS, but think genocide is divine will, you are not a good person. |
a. point to where in the Qur'an it say's that those that leave Islam are punished physically?
b. to the FOSS community, you ARE a good person
but more importantly,
another individual that wishes to coerce you is not a good individual. What's the point in judging their belief system, when we've already decided they're not good individuals?
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Muso
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | Words, their usage and meaning change. |
via deconstructionism. Which is a sick and evil thing in and of itself.
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