| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 756
Location: EU
|
 Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:55 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| ichbinsisyphos wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | apples and oranges. let me explain. |
Yes, the situation is not the same, the point is when somebody degrades something that you value highly, it is silly to expect you to ignore it. |
I am not expecting them to ignore or even not be insulted, that would be unreasonable of me. I am expecting them not to burn down embassies, which is reasonable of me.
| Quote: |
The various taboos in Islam have to be weakened if Muslim countries should be part of the advancing globalization. But you can't bulldozer in and call Mohammed a big faggot who may or may not had sexual relations with a donkey and was a child molester because he had an arranged marriage with a girl that was by some accounts 9 years old. 1400 years ago. |
if people don't want muhammed's moral actions to be questioned, don't claim he/the quran is the absolute moral authority. If you do, you will get honest debate about the topic (at one end) and mockery (the other end). In the west, we are free to speak about these things. The person who made the film doesn't speak for me, britain, america, or the west. He speaks only for himself, but people are burning down embassies and blaming "the west" like "the west" is one entity.
The victims here are embassy staff whose lives are threatened. They have absolutely no control over what films some guy in california makes. they may even agree it's garbage, yet their lives are now threatened by mobs.
| Quote: |
Im convinced that Islam can be pushed into private life as it happened with Christianity in Europe, but it has to happen gradually and voluntarily. It's kind of pointless to criticize one cultural circle whose standards mean nothing to you by the standards of your culture that mean nothing to them. It can't do any good, whatever the goals are, unless those goals are to sell a shit movie or work towards total war between the West and Arab countries. |
it doesn't have to be private. you can wear what you want and talk about islam with whomever is a willing participant. You can even do that in public. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
ichbinsisyphos
Guru
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 547
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yes, as soon as the mobs are rioting the time of the more rational and calm outrage is over  I don't think that there is anything worth discussing, it happens when many outraged individuals meet. The police can try to avoid it going that far, but it either isn't able or doesn't want to.
| juniper wrote: | | if people don't want muhammed's moral actions to be questioned, don't claim he/the quran is the absolute moral authority. |
In which context should they not claim the Koran as an absolute authority? I don't follow. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 756
Location: EU
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ichbinsisyphos wrote: | | Yes, as soon as the mobs are rioting the time of the more rational and calm outrage is over I don't think that there is anything worth discussing, it happens when many outraged individuals meet. The police can try to avoid it going that far, but it either isn't able or doesn't want to. |
One question is, what do the rioters want? Of course, a rioting mob isn't rational, but what does attacking a UK embassy do other than piss off brits who have had nothing to do with this? (same goes for german and american).
| Quote: |
| juniper wrote: | | if people don't want muhammed's moral actions to be questioned, don't claim he/the quran is the absolute moral authority. |
In which context should they not claim the Koran as an absolute authority? I don't follow. |
They can make all sorts of assertions. I am not saying they shouldn't claim that muhammed/the quran is the absolute moral authority. I am saying that if they do, they should expect people to challenge that claim. Given that some people also want others to live by that moral teaching of muhammed, doubly expect such claims to be challenged. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Muso
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Aisha was 6 when the 40+ year old child molester married her... he waited until she was 9 before he raped her. This isn't from some random source, it is in the Qur'an.
_________________
If I had a dollar for every time capitalism was blamed for the problems caused by government, I'd be a fat filmmaker with a baseball cap |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ichbinsisyphos
Guru
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 547
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| juniper wrote: | | ichbinsisyphos wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | if people don't want muhammed's moral actions to be questioned, don't claim he/the quran is the absolute moral authority. |
In which context should they not claim the Koran as an absolute authority? I don't follow. |
They can make all sorts of assertions. I am not saying they shouldn't claim that muhammed/the quran is the absolute moral authority. I am saying that if they do, they should expect people to challenge that claim. Given that some people also want others to live by that moral teaching of muhammed, doubly expect such claims to be challenged. |
Well, people that don't live by the rules of Islam challenging any such claims is pointless and I also think it is not justified. Inside of their communities they can, should and have such discussions anyway. So what? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 756
Location: EU
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ichbinsisyphos wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | ichbinsisyphos wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | if people don't want muhammed's moral actions to be questioned, don't claim he/the quran is the absolute moral authority. |
In which context should they not claim the Koran as an absolute authority? I don't follow. |
They can make all sorts of assertions. I am not saying they shouldn't claim that muhammed/the quran is the absolute moral authority. I am saying that if they do, they should expect people to challenge that claim. Given that some people also want others to live by that moral teaching of muhammed, doubly expect such claims to be challenged. |
Well, people that don't live by the rules of Islam challenging any such claims is pointless and I also think it is not justified. Inside of their communities they can, should and have such discussions anyway. So what? |
Some want to have sharia law in the UK and canada. some want to convince women into wearing headscarves and other things. their philosophy is being challenged for many reasons, the most obvious is that.
But I am not saying they can't have those discussions. they can have those discussions wherever they please. I don't object to that.
now to play devil's advocate.
on the flip side of the coin, I imagine these protests are just a blow hole. Some of these people live in war torn countries, or under some brutal regimes. it's an excuse to vent some steam and likely one of the few times their govt will let them do so. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
elyes
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 27 Apr 2008
Posts: 111
Location: Calvados Normandie France
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I would like to say 2 things:
1/ to our fundamentalist: still an American flag on the moon!
2/ about the movie: freedom don't allow you to be antisemitic .
_________________
Most of U don't even have an IDEA of the MAGNITUDE of the Israeli genocide on Palestine https://sites.google.com/site/palestiniangenocide/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Old School
Apprentice
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 231
Location: The Covered Bridge Capital of Oregon
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Muso wrote: | | Aisha was 6 when the 40+ year old child molester married her... he waited until she was 9 before he raped her. This isn't from some random source, it is in the Qur'an. |
Don't forget the wonderful practice of thighing.
_________________
I am not young enough to know everything.
- Oscar Wilde |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Muso
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| elyes wrote: | | freedom don't allow you to be antisemitic . |
What, exactly, do you think "freedom" means? Your sentence is a mess of conflicted ideas.
_________________
If I had a dollar for every time capitalism was blamed for the problems caused by government, I'd be a fat filmmaker with a baseball cap |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 756
Location: EU
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| elyes wrote: |
2/ about the movie: freedom don't allow you to be antisemitic . |
it does. just don't watch it if you don't like it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
marens
Apprentice
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 172
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Muso wrote: | | elyes wrote: | | freedom don't allow you to be antisemitic . |
What, exactly, do you think "freedom" means? Your sentence is a mess of conflicted ideas. |
http://imgur.com/E7TTW hihi
_________________
If English was good enough for Jesus, then it's good enough for you! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BoneKracker
Veteran
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1488
Location: U.S.A.
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| marens wrote: | | Muso wrote: | | elyes wrote: | | freedom don't allow you to be antisemitic . |
What, exactly, do you think "freedom" means? Your sentence is a mess of conflicted ideas. |
http://imgur.com/E7TTW hihi |
Morons.
There is only one answer for this: constant and widespread insulting of Mohamed so voluminous that they eventually become numb to it.
I'll start. Fuck Mohamed. He was no "prophet"; he was an opportunistic thief and child molester. His religion is immoral. Islamists are living in the stone age. They should pull their heads out of their asses and join the modern world.
_________________
Oldthinkers unbellyfeel INGSOC.
-- Headline of a document on Winston Smith's terminal in his cubicle at the Ministry of Truth, seen briefly in the background in one scene of the movie rendition of Nineteen Eighty-Four. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nomilieu
n00b
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 24
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
Come on, BK. Tell us how you really feel! 
As for me, I prefer to mock religion in general. That way, the radicals merely think I'm an idiot rather than an offensive jackass. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BoneKracker
Veteran
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1488
Location: U.S.A.
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| nomilieu wrote: | Come on, BK. Tell us how you really feel!
As for me, I prefer to mock religion in general. That way, the radicals merely think I'm an idiot rather than an offensive jackass. |
They can come try to kill me if they want. I'm armed and well-trained.
Religion should be respected, to the extent it does not interfere with the rights of others. The right to free speech is of paramount importance to free societies and modern civilization. Criticizing the hypocrisy or questionable morality of a religion or its practitioners may offend the followers of that religion, but it does not violate their rights.
These people are trying to force everybody they can to live according to a set of rules modern civilization knows to be immoral. You can't kill people for speaking their mind. Women are not slaves, property, or sub-human. It's not okay to commit violence and other crimes against people, or to lie to or defraud them, simply because they are not of your faith or to further the cause of your religion.
Everybody agrees on these things except the Muslim fundamentalists. That disagreement would be okay, if they kept to themselves. But, their aim is not to keep to themselves but to expand and force this way of life on as much of the world as possible. People who want to pretend that's not a threat should look at a map and plot all the Islamic terrorist attacks and violence that happened over the past week. That's how far the cancer has spread.
_________________
Oldthinkers unbellyfeel INGSOC.
-- Headline of a document on Winston Smith's terminal in his cubicle at the Ministry of Truth, seen briefly in the background in one scene of the movie rendition of Nineteen Eighty-Four. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Clad in Sky
l33t
Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 657
Location: Germany
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
I find it especially alarming that they're not going for the producer, but just went into berzerk mode and attack Amercian and other "western" installations. Yes, it was an American (more or less) who made the film, that does not mean all Amercans share this view (as far as I know, some Americans are Muslims, even).
As for the free speech != insulting Mohammed: Those same people who just got rid of an oppressive government (only to vote - in free elections, hooray - for a religious government that's probably not much better) want other governments to abandon free speech. How ironic.
_________________
Kali Ma
Now it's autumn of the aeons
Dance with your sword
Now it's time for the harvest |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wildhorse
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 148
Location: Estados Unidos De América
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| We Europeans are dealing here with idiots on both sides and get caught in the middle. Thanks! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Darth Marley
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 105
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Clad in Sky wrote: | I find it especially alarming that they're not going for the producer, but just went into berzerk mode and attack Amercian and other "western" installations. Yes, it was an American (more or less) who made the film, that does not mean all Amercans share this view (as far as I know, some Americans are Muslims, even).
As for the free speech != insulting Mohammed: Those same people who just got rid of an oppressive government (only to vote - in free elections, hooray - for a religious government that's probably not much better) want other governments to abandon free speech. How ironic. |
I would find it especially alarming if they did go after the producer.
They shouldn't be "going after" anyone.
For a group which prides themselves on preserving the wisdom of ancient Greece, they sure seem unable to appreciate what they saved.
This may require a "civilizing war." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Clad in Sky
l33t
Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 657
Location: Germany
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Darth Marley wrote: |
For a group which prides themselves on preserving the wisdom of ancient Greece, they sure seem unable to appreciate what they saved.
|
They do that? 
I don't know. The meaning of "especially" seems to have degraded. What I wanted to say it that I find it more alarming that embassies etc. were attacked instead of the one person who's responsible for the video.
Of course trying to kill someone for that is alarming as well, but more understandable. It's more like the example someone used above of calling Juniper's wife names and retaliating against the caller, but not people around him.
_________________
Kali Ma
Now it's autumn of the aeons
Dance with your sword
Now it's time for the harvest |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wildhorse
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 148
Location: Estados Unidos De América
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Darth Marley wrote: | | For a group which prides themselves on preserving the wisdom of ancient Greece, they sure seem unable to appreciate what they saved. |
Kibosh! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 756
Location: EU
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BoneKracker wrote: | | marens wrote: | | Muso wrote: | | elyes wrote: | | freedom don't allow you to be antisemitic . |
What, exactly, do you think "freedom" means? Your sentence is a mess of conflicted ideas. |
http://imgur.com/E7TTW hihi |
Morons.
There is only one answer for this: constant and widespread insulting of Mohamed so voluminous that they eventually become numb to it.
I'll start. Fuck Mohamed. He was no "prophet"; he was an opportunistic thief and child molester. His religion is immoral. Islamists are living in the stone age. They should pull their heads out of their asses and join the modern world. |
the sign is technically correct. freedom of speech != insulting the muhammed. but you knew that.
Sadly, i kind of think you are correct. certainly, it will protect the people who are targets of violence on account of making films as then there would be too many targets.
I will also just point out that criticizing islam/judaism doesn't make you an anti semite (the first quote above). people should be protected, not ideas. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aCOSwt
Advocate
Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: Between the keyboard and the chair
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| juniper wrote: | | people should be protected, not ideas. |
Then ideas should be condemned, not people ?
Hrmmm... something is getting rotten again in the kingdom of Denmark !
_________________
In theory there are no differences between theory and practice. In practice, there are.
Don't try to understand my posts. Immanuel Kant never did, he thinks that only music and laughter do not have to mean anything. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Darth Marley
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 105
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| elyes wrote: | I would like to say 2 things:
1/ to our fundamentalist: still an American flag on the moon!
2/ about the movie: freedom don't allow you to be antisemitic . |
Whose "fundamentalist" do you mean?
Are you suggesting that outraged Muslims should burn the flag on the moon?
Hilarious notion, that.
Freedom does allow people to be bigots, as if you could even prevent that with tyranny.
It does not allow vandalism, trespass, assault, or murder. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 756
Location: EU
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| aCOSwt wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | people should be protected, not ideas. |
Then ideas should be condemned, not people ?
Hrmmm... something is getting rotten again in the kingdom of Denmark ! |
sure. Ideas should not be under any protection from criticism. islam and the danish cartoons can both be criticized. their critics can be criticized. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 756
Location: EU
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Darth Marley wrote: | | elyes wrote: | I would like to say 2 things:
1/ to our fundamentalist: still an American flag on the moon!
2/ about the movie: freedom don't allow you to be antisemitic . |
Whose "fundamentalist" do you mean?
Are you suggesting that outraged Muslims should burn the flag on the moon?
Hilarious notion, that.
Freedom does allow people to be bigots, as if you could even prevent that with tyranny.
It does not allow vandalism, trespass, assault, or murder. |
but I wouldn't even call it bigotry. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aidanjt
Veteran
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Rep. of Ireland
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
Off the Wall
