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Arab Spring Comes Home to Roost: US Embassies Attacked
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juniper
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ichbinsisyphos wrote:
juniper wrote:
apples and oranges. let me explain.
Yes, the situation is not the same, the point is when somebody degrades something that you value highly, it is silly to expect you to ignore it.


I am not expecting them to ignore or even not be insulted, that would be unreasonable of me. I am expecting them not to burn down embassies, which is reasonable of me.

Quote:

The various taboos in Islam have to be weakened if Muslim countries should be part of the advancing globalization. But you can't bulldozer in and call Mohammed a big faggot who may or may not had sexual relations with a donkey and was a child molester because he had an arranged marriage with a girl that was by some accounts 9 years old. 1400 years ago.


if people don't want muhammed's moral actions to be questioned, don't claim he/the quran is the absolute moral authority. If you do, you will get honest debate about the topic (at one end) and mockery (the other end). In the west, we are free to speak about these things. The person who made the film doesn't speak for me, britain, america, or the west. He speaks only for himself, but people are burning down embassies and blaming "the west" like "the west" is one entity.

The victims here are embassy staff whose lives are threatened. They have absolutely no control over what films some guy in california makes. they may even agree it's garbage, yet their lives are now threatened by mobs.

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Im convinced that Islam can be pushed into private life as it happened with Christianity in Europe, but it has to happen gradually and voluntarily. It's kind of pointless to criticize one cultural circle whose standards mean nothing to you by the standards of your culture that mean nothing to them. It can't do any good, whatever the goals are, unless those goals are to sell a shit movie or work towards total war between the West and Arab countries.


it doesn't have to be private. you can wear what you want and talk about islam with whomever is a willing participant. You can even do that in public.
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ichbinsisyphos
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, as soon as the mobs are rioting the time of the more rational and calm outrage is over ;) I don't think that there is anything worth discussing, it happens when many outraged individuals meet. The police can try to avoid it going that far, but it either isn't able or doesn't want to.

juniper wrote:
if people don't want muhammed's moral actions to be questioned, don't claim he/the quran is the absolute moral authority.
In which context should they not claim the Koran as an absolute authority? I don't follow.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ichbinsisyphos wrote:
Yes, as soon as the mobs are rioting the time of the more rational and calm outrage is over ;) I don't think that there is anything worth discussing, it happens when many outraged individuals meet. The police can try to avoid it going that far, but it either isn't able or doesn't want to.


One question is, what do the rioters want? Of course, a rioting mob isn't rational, but what does attacking a UK embassy do other than piss off brits who have had nothing to do with this? (same goes for german and american).

Quote:

juniper wrote:
if people don't want muhammed's moral actions to be questioned, don't claim he/the quran is the absolute moral authority.
In which context should they not claim the Koran as an absolute authority? I don't follow.


They can make all sorts of assertions. I am not saying they shouldn't claim that muhammed/the quran is the absolute moral authority. I am saying that if they do, they should expect people to challenge that claim. Given that some people also want others to live by that moral teaching of muhammed, doubly expect such claims to be challenged.
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Muso
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aisha was 6 when the 40+ year old child molester married her... he waited until she was 9 before he raped her. This isn't from some random source, it is in the Qur'an.
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ichbinsisyphos
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
ichbinsisyphos wrote:
juniper wrote:
if people don't want muhammed's moral actions to be questioned, don't claim he/the quran is the absolute moral authority.
In which context should they not claim the Koran as an absolute authority? I don't follow.


They can make all sorts of assertions. I am not saying they shouldn't claim that muhammed/the quran is the absolute moral authority. I am saying that if they do, they should expect people to challenge that claim. Given that some people also want others to live by that moral teaching of muhammed, doubly expect such claims to be challenged.
Well, people that don't live by the rules of Islam challenging any such claims is pointless and I also think it is not justified. Inside of their communities they can, should and have such discussions anyway. So what?
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juniper
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ichbinsisyphos wrote:
juniper wrote:
ichbinsisyphos wrote:
juniper wrote:
if people don't want muhammed's moral actions to be questioned, don't claim he/the quran is the absolute moral authority.
In which context should they not claim the Koran as an absolute authority? I don't follow.


They can make all sorts of assertions. I am not saying they shouldn't claim that muhammed/the quran is the absolute moral authority. I am saying that if they do, they should expect people to challenge that claim. Given that some people also want others to live by that moral teaching of muhammed, doubly expect such claims to be challenged.
Well, people that don't live by the rules of Islam challenging any such claims is pointless and I also think it is not justified. Inside of their communities they can, should and have such discussions anyway. So what?


Some want to have sharia law in the UK and canada. some want to convince women into wearing headscarves and other things. their philosophy is being challenged for many reasons, the most obvious is that.

But I am not saying they can't have those discussions. they can have those discussions wherever they please. I don't object to that.

now to play devil's advocate.

on the flip side of the coin, I imagine these protests are just a blow hole. Some of these people live in war torn countries, or under some brutal regimes. it's an excuse to vent some steam and likely one of the few times their govt will let them do so.
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elyes
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to say 2 things:
1/ to our fundamentalist: still an American flag on the moon! ;)
2/ about the movie: freedom don't allow you to be antisemitic .
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
Aisha was 6 when the 40+ year old child molester married her... he waited until she was 9 before he raped her. This isn't from some random source, it is in the Qur'an.

Don't forget the wonderful practice of thighing.
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Muso
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elyes wrote:
freedom don't allow you to be antisemitic .


What, exactly, do you think "freedom" means? Your sentence is a mess of conflicted ideas.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elyes wrote:

2/ about the movie: freedom don't allow you to be antisemitic .


it does. just don't watch it if you don't like it.
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marens
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
elyes wrote:
freedom don't allow you to be antisemitic .


What, exactly, do you think "freedom" means? Your sentence is a mess of conflicted ideas.


http://imgur.com/E7TTW hihi
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

marens wrote:
Muso wrote:
elyes wrote:
freedom don't allow you to be antisemitic .


What, exactly, do you think "freedom" means? Your sentence is a mess of conflicted ideas.


http://imgur.com/E7TTW hihi

Morons.

There is only one answer for this: constant and widespread insulting of Mohamed so voluminous that they eventually become numb to it.

I'll start. Fuck Mohamed. He was no "prophet"; he was an opportunistic thief and child molester. His religion is immoral. Islamists are living in the stone age. They should pull their heads out of their asses and join the modern world.
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nomilieu
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on, BK. Tell us how you really feel! :lol:
As for me, I prefer to mock religion in general. That way, the radicals merely think I'm an idiot rather than an offensive jackass.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nomilieu wrote:
Come on, BK. Tell us how you really feel! :lol:
As for me, I prefer to mock religion in general. That way, the radicals merely think I'm an idiot rather than an offensive jackass.

They can come try to kill me if they want. I'm armed and well-trained.

Religion should be respected, to the extent it does not interfere with the rights of others. The right to free speech is of paramount importance to free societies and modern civilization. Criticizing the hypocrisy or questionable morality of a religion or its practitioners may offend the followers of that religion, but it does not violate their rights.

These people are trying to force everybody they can to live according to a set of rules modern civilization knows to be immoral. You can't kill people for speaking their mind. Women are not slaves, property, or sub-human. It's not okay to commit violence and other crimes against people, or to lie to or defraud them, simply because they are not of your faith or to further the cause of your religion.

Everybody agrees on these things except the Muslim fundamentalists. That disagreement would be okay, if they kept to themselves. But, their aim is not to keep to themselves but to expand and force this way of life on as much of the world as possible. People who want to pretend that's not a threat should look at a map and plot all the Islamic terrorist attacks and violence that happened over the past week. That's how far the cancer has spread.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it especially alarming that they're not going for the producer, but just went into berzerk mode and attack Amercian and other "western" installations. Yes, it was an American (more or less) who made the film, that does not mean all Amercans share this view (as far as I know, some Americans are Muslims, even).

As for the free speech != insulting Mohammed: Those same people who just got rid of an oppressive government (only to vote - in free elections, hooray - for a religious government that's probably not much better) want other governments to abandon free speech. How ironic.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We Europeans are dealing here with idiots on both sides and get caught in the middle. Thanks!
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clad in Sky wrote:
I find it especially alarming that they're not going for the producer, but just went into berzerk mode and attack Amercian and other "western" installations. Yes, it was an American (more or less) who made the film, that does not mean all Amercans share this view (as far as I know, some Americans are Muslims, even).

As for the free speech != insulting Mohammed: Those same people who just got rid of an oppressive government (only to vote - in free elections, hooray - for a religious government that's probably not much better) want other governments to abandon free speech. How ironic.


I would find it especially alarming if they did go after the producer.

They shouldn't be "going after" anyone.

For a group which prides themselves on preserving the wisdom of ancient Greece, they sure seem unable to appreciate what they saved.

This may require a "civilizing war."
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darth Marley wrote:

For a group which prides themselves on preserving the wisdom of ancient Greece, they sure seem unable to appreciate what they saved.

They do that? :D

I don't know. The meaning of "especially" seems to have degraded. What I wanted to say it that I find it more alarming that embassies etc. were attacked instead of the one person who's responsible for the video.
Of course trying to kill someone for that is alarming as well, but more understandable. It's more like the example someone used above of calling Juniper's wife names and retaliating against the caller, but not people around him.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darth Marley wrote:
For a group which prides themselves on preserving the wisdom of ancient Greece, they sure seem unable to appreciate what they saved.
Kibosh!
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
marens wrote:
Muso wrote:
elyes wrote:
freedom don't allow you to be antisemitic .


What, exactly, do you think "freedom" means? Your sentence is a mess of conflicted ideas.


http://imgur.com/E7TTW hihi

Morons.

There is only one answer for this: constant and widespread insulting of Mohamed so voluminous that they eventually become numb to it.

I'll start. Fuck Mohamed. He was no "prophet"; he was an opportunistic thief and child molester. His religion is immoral. Islamists are living in the stone age. They should pull their heads out of their asses and join the modern world.


the sign is technically correct. freedom of speech != insulting the muhammed. but you knew that.

Sadly, i kind of think you are correct. certainly, it will protect the people who are targets of violence on account of making films as then there would be too many targets.

I will also just point out that criticizing islam/judaism doesn't make you an anti semite (the first quote above). people should be protected, not ideas.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
people should be protected, not ideas.

Then ideas should be condemned, not people ?
Hrmmm... something is getting rotten again in the kingdom of Denmark !
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elyes wrote:
I would like to say 2 things:
1/ to our fundamentalist: still an American flag on the moon! ;)
2/ about the movie: freedom don't allow you to be antisemitic .


Whose "fundamentalist" do you mean?
Are you suggesting that outraged Muslims should burn the flag on the moon?
Hilarious notion, that.

Freedom does allow people to be bigots, as if you could even prevent that with tyranny.

It does not allow vandalism, trespass, assault, or murder.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
juniper wrote:
people should be protected, not ideas.

Then ideas should be condemned, not people ?
Hrmmm... something is getting rotten again in the kingdom of Denmark !


sure. Ideas should not be under any protection from criticism. islam and the danish cartoons can both be criticized. their critics can be criticized.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darth Marley wrote:
elyes wrote:
I would like to say 2 things:
1/ to our fundamentalist: still an American flag on the moon! ;)
2/ about the movie: freedom don't allow you to be antisemitic .


Whose "fundamentalist" do you mean?
Are you suggesting that outraged Muslims should burn the flag on the moon?
Hilarious notion, that.

Freedom does allow people to be bigots, as if you could even prevent that with tyranny.

It does not allow vandalism, trespass, assault, or murder.


but I wouldn't even call it bigotry.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/
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