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genstorm
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:27 pm    Post subject: so, udev was forked Reply with quote

https://bitbucket.org/braindamaged/udev

f.g.o. announcement: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-934678.html

discuss.
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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:12 pm    Post subject: Re: so, udev was forked Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
https://bitbucket.org/braindamaged/udev

f.g.o. announcement: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-934678.html

discuss.


yay!
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huzzah, maybe this will make it easier to swap back to Gentoo for the long haul at work.
I'm currently using Arch Linux at my desk, and I expect that systemd (as the supported default) is inevitable.

Not that systemd is necessarily terrible (I haven't used it), but it annoys me to be forced to use unfamiliar software with a bunch of piggyback nonsense attached to it (e.g. journald).
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sts
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol. Lennart's social skills appear to be nearly as refined as Ciaran's. No wonder there's a fork.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nomilieu wrote:
Huzzah, maybe this will make it easier to swap back to Gentoo for the long haul at work.
I'm currently using Arch Linux at my desk, and I expect that systemd (as the supported default) is inevitable.

Not that systemd is necessarily terrible (I haven't used it), but it annoys me to be forced to use unfamiliar software with a bunch of piggyback nonsense attached to it (e.g. journald).


Check out the testing repo. Arch Linux guys have already replaced its original bsd-init with systemd.
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ichbinsisyphos
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there a rational reason to merge the two?
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genstorm
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When your rationale is to strong-arm everyone into systemd then... http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2012-August/006066.html
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can understand that he is looking forward to drop support for other init systems, now that he merged udev and systemd.
But that doesn't explain why he merged them in the first place.

I'd also would like to know if he thought this step would be well-received when almost every distro uses udev, but most have their own sysvinit-replacement.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ichbinsisyphos wrote:
But that doesn't explain why he merged them in the first place.

http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Udev-will-become-part-of-systemd-1500832.html

Quote:

Sievers gave several reasons for merging udev with systemd. He explained that a modern init system must be fully hotplug-capable; udev device management and knowledge about device lifecycles is an integral part of systemd and not an isolated logic, said the developer. He added that merging udev and systemd will minimise the duplication of code, resolve circular build dependencies and reduce the two projects' administrative workload. Merging the code will have no effect on the libudev programming interface.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mardok45 wrote:
Quote:
He explained that a modern init system must be fully hotplug-capable; udev device management and knowledge about device lifecycles is an integral part of systemd and not an isolated logic, said the developer.

That's not an explanation, that's a bare assertion. The two systems have nothing in common. Typical designtardary.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
Mardok45 wrote:
Quote:
He explained that a modern init system must be fully hotplug-capable; udev device management and knowledge about device lifecycles is an integral part of systemd and not an isolated logic, said the developer.

That's not an explanation, that's a bare assertion. The two systems have nothing in common. Typical designtardary.

"Modern init system" as defined by whom?

It's contrary to modular design. It smacks of poor engineering. 'We can't figure out how to make these independent, so we're going to make one thing out of them, even though the have two disparate purposes.'
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

grey_dot wrote:
Check out the testing repo. Arch Linux guys have already replaced its original bsd-init with systemd.

Not entirely. You'll need to install the whole of systemd if you want udev (and you do, Arch wholly depends on it), but you can still use initscripts for booting.

The problem will become once they compile polkit against systemd instead of consolekit. Then if you use anything that uses polkit, you will need to boot with systemd. Though there's the possibility that alternative packages will be available either in the [community] repo or in AUR.

The thing is though, lots of Arch users are fine with systemd. The amount of recent reports the likes of "I just switched to systemd and it was very easy by simply following the wiki" outweigh the few who started flamewars on the mailing list.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gusar wrote:
The thing is though, lots of Arch users are fine with systemd. The amount of recent reports the likes of "I just switched to systemd and it was very easy by simply following the wiki" outweigh the few who started flamewars on the mailing list.


I would imagine that most of those in favor of it, are simply desktop users.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Today, ‘Init’ needs to be fully hotplug-capable;
~Kay Sievers


Why would Init need to be hotplug capable?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Why would Init need to be hotplug capable?

Exactly, it doesn't. udev has always been able to call hardware-related service scripts, as few as there are, on insertion and removal.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gusar wrote:
grey_dot wrote:
Check out the testing repo. Arch Linux guys have already replaced its original bsd-init with systemd.

Not entirely. You'll need to install the whole of systemd if you want udev (and you do, Arch wholly depends on it), but you can still use initscripts for booting.

The problem will become once they compile polkit against systemd instead of consolekit. Then if you use anything that uses polkit, you will need to boot with systemd. Though there's the possibility that alternative packages will be available either in the [community] repo or in AUR.

The thing is though, lots of Arch users are fine with systemd. The amount of recent reports the likes of "I just switched to systemd and it was very easy by simply following the wiki" outweigh the few who started flamewars on the mailing list.


I have several guys here in our r&d dep. who's machines were broken due to update, so I have a reason to believe everything is not that good.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may just move to systemd on this machine to see if I like it. I'm generally resistant to change unless I see a good reason to change.
But, I don't have any special use case that prevents me from trying it out.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grey_dot wrote:
I have several guys here in our r&d dep. who's machines were broken due to update, so I have a reason to believe everything is not that good.

Wow, that is totally not vague at all!

There were a few rocky things in Arch recently - most notably replacing /lib with a symlink to /usr/lib. But that:
a) has no relation to the switch to systemd, which has to be done manually; if you don't do it, your system will still boot with initscripts as it always has
b) only doesn't go smoothly if you ignore all the documentation; particularly if you do stupid things like pacman --force
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want an init system that was only created because pulseaudio sucks.

I don't want an init system by a guy that wrote a real time daemon, dropped into a jack ml and told them 'btw, this will be mandatory, and yes, I screwed you over. Sucks to be you'.

I don't want an init system that depends on dbus

I don't want an init system that gnomifies my computers.

I don't want an init system that replaces a simple init 3 with this crap: systemctl enable multi-user.target

what next? mandatory initrd even on a system where no mounting is needed for all the important stuff to be in place?

When I look at the systemd ebuild I am torn between barfing and going full berserk because of all the crap this fucked up thing pulls in. For shit and giggles compare that wankfest to openrc and baselayout.

The day gentoo goes systemd is the day I hardmask most of the system and import bsd init from slackware.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sts wrote:
lol. Lennart's social skills appear to be nearly as refined as Ciaran's. No wonder there's a fork.

Hey now, ciaranm's package manager may be slower than editing /var/db files by hand but at least it doesn't actively try to destroy your system.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
I don't want an init system that was only created because pulseaudio sucks.

I don't want an init system by a guy that wrote a real time daemon, dropped into a jack ml and told them 'btw, this will be mandatory, and yes, I screwed you over. Sucks to be you'.

I don't want an init system that depends on dbus

I don't want an init system that gnomifies my computers.

I don't want an init system that replaces a simple init 3 with this crap: systemctl enable multi-user.target

what next? mandatory initrd even on a system where no mounting is needed for all the important stuff to be in place?

When I look at the systemd ebuild I am torn between barfing and going full berserk because of all the crap this fucked up thing pulls in. For shit and giggles compare that wankfest to openrc and baselayout.

The day gentoo goes systemd is the day I hardmask most of the system and import bsd init from slackware.

++
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Odd. And here I am liking systemd.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got to use systemd back when i was using Fedora and, even though i didn't find it awful, i didn't find anything about it worth of praise either. Plus, i don't like not having /usr separated and i don't want to use initramfs.

So, yeah, i think this is good stuff. :)
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Odd. And here I am liking systemd.

What do you like about it?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Odd. And here I am liking systemd.
Aren't you the guy who lauded .Net / .Miguel for eons? :P
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