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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
pjp wrote:
sugar wrote:
the popular vote isn't useful, because the USA is some election backwater and has "electoral colleges".
EC is far from perfect, but "mob rule" is so much worse.


but it distorts the 'one person, one vote' principle. Some votes count for more than others.

It doesn't distort anything. Our Federal Government is supposed to be a union of states, and each state gets a certain number of electors (same as the number of Congressional representatives).

Does the EU have a direct election of its President? The problem isn't that our electoral college is a bastardization of democracy; the problem is that our Federal Government has become something it was never intended to be: a powerful national government directly ruling over the lives of the citizens of its member states.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
but [the EC] distorts the 'one person, one vote' principle. Some votes count for more than others.
You are not incorrect, but you are not addressing the issue. The reason for the EC is to protect the minority from the majority. In the 'one person, one vote' scenario you suggest, the resultant mob rule also distorts the 'one person, one vote' principle by effectively negating the minority.
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ichbinsisyphos
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
sugar wrote:
but [the EC] distorts the 'one person, one vote' principle. Some votes count for more than others.
You are not incorrect, but you are not addressing the issue. The reason for the EC is to protect the minority from the majority. In the 'one person, one vote' scenario you suggest, the resultant mob rule also distorts the 'one person, one vote' principle by effectively negating the minority.
Can I ask you what an Electoral College is in that own private reality of yours and what exactly this minority is that it protects from the majority and how?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ichbinsisyphos wrote:
Can I ask you what an Electoral College is in that own private reality of yours
You seem to be confusing some concepts, though I certainly can't decipher the short circuit you're experiencing. If you care to learn about the Electoral College in the US, you are more than welcome to do so.
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ichbinsisyphos
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you think you win something if you blindly defend your ignorance against anybody who calls you out on it?

The electoral college gives weight to the states in the election. It certainly has nothing to do with this "tyranny of the masses"-rant of yours.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your lack of understanding is not my ignorance.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ichbinsisyphos wrote:
Do you think you win something if you blindly defend your ignorance against anybody who calls you out on it?

The electoral college gives weight to the states in the election. It certainly has nothing to do with this "tyranny of the masses"-rant of yours.


++

there are other check and balances in place to prevent an ochlocracy forming (i.e. the independence of the judiciary). An electoral college, however, is a crude instrument to achieve this end, especially considering that the college are not bound by law to vote with a mandate.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whether or not it is a good solution is an entrely different subject. Mob rule is not an improvement.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Whether or not it is a good solution is an entrely different subject. Mob rule is not an improvement.


it isn't inherently good or bad. It just needs to act in the interests of the community, and be justified in doing so.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ ichbinsysiphos and sugar:

There are two things at work here. One is that the electoral college represents a form of federated governance, with the states electing the President, rather than the national population doing so. The second is that the electoral college is a form of representative democracy, which is what pjp is referring to when he says that it protects from mob rule. Coupled with constitutional law, representative democracy buffers society from the potential harm done by mob rule (to include populist demagoguery, uninformed and misinformed voting and majority neglect of minority needs and rights).

If you need more of an explanation than that, let me know.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
It just needs to act in the interests of the community, and be justified in doing so.
Which brings us back to the uninformed tangent ichbinsysiphos started.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
sugar wrote:
It just needs to act in the interests of the community, and be justified in doing so.
Which brings us back to the uninformed tangent ichbinsysiphos started.


the electoral college can be equally uninformed, as they are not required to vote along the lines of a legally required mandate.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was unable to parse that. Could you restate it please?

What does being required to vote in a certain way have to do with being informed?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get his point, but he's bogged down in details that aren't relevant.

His point is that an ignorant delegste going against the popular vote could "break" the protections built into the EC system.

IMO, that is a minor issue in the overall picture of the concept of the EC. Regardless of his criticism on this point, it either works or it doesn't. History says it works (more than not).
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
I get his point, but he's bogged down in details that aren't relevant.

His point is that an ignorant delegste going against the popular vote could "break" the protections built into the EC system.

IMO, that is a minor issue in the overall picture of the concept of the EC. Regardless of his criticism on this point, it either works or it doesn't. History says it works (more than not).

IIRC, this is exactly the sham that Ron Paul's campaign for this failed presidency bid tried to do.

Ron Paul supporters stayed at the various venues longer in an attempt to overwhelm and in doing so secure more delegates. Their intention was then to ignore the majority vote and nominate RP.

This effort failed, obviously. But i would remove sugar's "ignorant" adjective and replace it with "willful", as is the case with RP's campaign.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never completely understood what they thought they were going to do.

But the point remains, it didn't, doesn't and hasn't happened. Is it a loophole that ought to be fixed? Absolutely. But it is irrelevant to whether or not the EC "works."
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
I never completely understood what they thought they were going to do.

But the point remains, it didn't, doesn't and hasn't happened. Is it a loophole that ought to be fixed? Absolutely. But it is irrelevant to whether or not the EC "works."

plus it failed, so even willfully exploiting the 'loophole' isn't effective.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The senate seems to be a republican win, because of the Rasmussen bias.

It's 49 to 47 (with 4 states tied) to the Demos.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
The senate seems to be a republican win, because of the Rasmussen bias.

It's 49 to 47 (with 4 states tied) to the Demos.

We shall see. The fact that the Democrat majority is jeopardy is testament to the failure of Democrats and the Obama Administration over the past four years.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This changed.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
This changed.


Obama got a nice boost from *both* the RNC and the DNC.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like it.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bounce is gone, back to where it had been for a long time. 332 : 206 (less neutral states, which are leaning O). Senate still showing slight Republican majority. Based on the slightly Obama states, I don't see enough of them switching. Assuming the site is an accurate predictor.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there's been a change.

http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2012/Senate/Maps/Sep13-s.html

it was 47-50 with 3 tied in the senate race yesterday, and now it's 48-49 with 3 ties. With the Rasmussen free polls, the dems have a 1 seat lead for the senate (49-48, 3 polls tied).
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
This changed.


has changed. gop is no longer leading in the senate race, either.

Seems like the whole things is done and dusted.
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