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petrjanda
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Removing the mandate is the primary necessity at this point. That won't kill it, but it will help. Supposedly any executive orders he can create won't allow for change until 2017, so we'll just have to see.

Seems very strange that Obama is slipping, but Democrats in congress are gaining ground. We'll know soon enough. OK, not soon enough, but soon.


I don't see how removing the mandate can work if pre-existing condition is left in there.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

petrjanda wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Don't deceive yourself; Rasmussen isn't the only poll with bias (for example, the CBS/NYT/Quinnapac poll is just a biased in the other direction). That's why I look at an average.


If you read the actual article that explains "why Rasmussen-free", it says they were the only ones found with a significant bias.

So say the otherwise biased. I'll stick with the average, thanks.
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I didn't misquote you, I just misunderstood you.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

petrjanda wrote:
pjp wrote:
Removing the mandate is the primary necessity at this point. That won't kill it, but it will help. Supposedly any executive orders he can create won't allow for change until 2017, so we'll just have to see.

Seems very strange that Obama is slipping, but Democrats in congress are gaining ground. We'll know soon enough. OK, not soon enough, but soon.


I don't see how removing the mandate can work if pre-existing condition is left in there.

Easy. Just make it illegal to deny insurance claims on the basis of pre-existing conditions. It's not like we've never had any health insurance laws, and it's not like a tax is necessary in order to have them.
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I didn't misquote you, I just misunderstood you.
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petrjanda
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
petrjanda wrote:
pjp wrote:
Removing the mandate is the primary necessity at this point. That won't kill it, but it will help. Supposedly any executive orders he can create won't allow for change until 2017, so we'll just have to see.

Seems very strange that Obama is slipping, but Democrats in congress are gaining ground. We'll know soon enough. OK, not soon enough, but soon.


I don't see how removing the mandate can work if pre-existing condition is left in there.

Easy. Just make it illegal to deny insurance claims on the basis of pre-existing conditions. It's not like we've never had any health insurance laws, and it's not like a tax is necessary in order to have them.


How is this going to work? You allow people to not pay insurance, yet you can't deny claims/insurance to people based on pre-existing condition? The way I understand it, this could cause a money black hole because you will have people not paying insurance untill they are sick
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pjp
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

petrjanda wrote:
How is this going to work? You allow people to not pay insurance, yet you can't deny claims/insurance to people based on pre-existing condition? The way I understand it, this could cause a money black hole because you will have people not paying insurance untill they are sick
Remove the regulatory quagmire preventing competition. Not denying someone coverage != penny-a-day policy.
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petrjanda
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
petrjanda wrote:
How is this going to work? You allow people to not pay insurance, yet you can't deny claims/insurance to people based on pre-existing condition? The way I understand it, this could cause a money black hole because you will have people not paying insurance untill they are sick
Remove the regulatory quagmire preventing competition. Not denying someone coverage != penny-a-day policy.


I don't think all that could be done via executive orders. Maybe it's worth giving Obamacare a try, and if it ends up causing more trouble for healthcare, then you'd probably gain bipartisan support to repeal it. Theres no denial your health care system is a giant clusterfuck, but i'm not sure whether it's easier to let it die and build it up again, or try "undoing" all the things that are wrong with it.

So here is how I look at it - both parties have done more wrong than right in the last 20 years, there's no reason to hope that one is suddenly going to start doing more right than wrong.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

petrjanda wrote:
Maybe it's worth giving Obamacare a try
When anything is passed with statements like "We can't know what's in it until we pass it," it must be killed with fire.

petrjanda wrote:
then you'd probably gain bipartisan support to repeal it.
You mean like the previous 20 years of failure? I mean ~40?

petrjanda wrote:
there's no reason to hope that one [party] is suddenly going to start doing more right than wrong.
Thus, Obamacare and the importance of getting rid of it.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to a single-payer healthcare arrangement, although I'd prefer it be done at state level, perhaps according to a reasonably flexible framework defined by the Federal government. I am opposed to Obamacare, though, because it's not what ANYBODY wanted, and it's just a recipe for more cost-generating bureaucracy, uncertainty, and unproductive change for the sake of change. It's a big deal, and we need to get it right.
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I didn't misquote you, I just misunderstood you.
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