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mcgruff
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 28 Dec 2004
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 Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| muso wrote: | | The guy is quitting because of opinions he disagrees with are being expressed. |
Thanks for being so diplomatic. You almost persuaded him to change his mind.
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Muso
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | | muso wrote: | | The guy is quitting because of opinions he disagrees with are being expressed. |
Thanks for being so diplomatic. You almost persuaded him to change his mind. |
I care not to change his mind. He's got issues with free speech, so no real loss imo.
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pjp
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | Now this doesn't show that water boarding is torture, but I hope it does show how silly it is to argue that water boarding is not torture because we do it our soldiers, who volunteer. It's apples and oranges. |
Oh dear indeed. But at least I have a possible explanation for your inability to answer the question.
| dmitchell wrote: | | The thing you have to keep in mind about pjp is that he was (I think) in the military, so you have to expect and make allowances for the usual level of brain damage that follows. |
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pjp
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Sprotte wrote: | The fact that site admins here can get away with supporting torture is the last straw for me. This is horrible. I'm certain no one here cares if I finally stop reading this shithole, but I felt like I wanted to say it. For the record.
Some Americans have a fucked up understanding of free speech, which you will no doubt hide behind. Free speech doesn't cover "Torture is OK". Not in any civilized country.
Stuff like this did contribute to me no longer using Gentoo. You are no doubt going to ridicule this, but I feel this type of stuff is a blight on what used to be a good idea.
But certainly no one who's left in here will care.
Bye. |
I'm sorry you're leaving, but to correct your misunderstanding, I do not "support torture." But, like our disagreement on what constitutes free speech, we also disagree on the definition of torture. Any civilized country would not ban "torture is OK" because that is discussion of an idea, not an action. Hopefully you aren't subjected to such barbaric laws.
I do not ridicule any of your comments, but I do disagree with your assertions. Obviously you are free to make your own choices, but I can still think it is a shame that you base your choice of operating system on something completely unrelated.
Best of luck in all you do, and I hope Red Flag Linux works out for you!
(OK, yes, that was a bit of a tongue-in-cheek poke, but if you can't have fun, you're doing it wrong!)
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pjp
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| richk449 wrote: | | Actually, the burden of proof is on pjp to prove his claim. |
No, it isn't. You should go back and see what I was responding to: the "threat" (which I don't believe was a real threat, but it should be clarified, otherwise its just a troll). I wasn't asking for proof, I was asking for an explanation of his reaction, which he was certainly not obligated to provide. He didn't later go on to "prove" why it is torture, but he at least did clarify his reaction.
| richk449 wrote: | To me, his statement is entirely nonsensical. Saying "we do it to our soldiers, therefore waterboarding is not torture" makes as much sense as saying "the sky is blue, therefore waterboarding is not torture".
I would like an actual explanation for why he think the two statements are connected. |
I'd love to provide an answer, but that you can think it is comparable to saying "the sky is blue" makes me think it is not possible. But I'll try.
Hmm... OK. That I know of, we don't shoot anyone so they can learn to deal with it. We don't, as I mentioned, torture them by electrocuting their genitals, etc. So we can establish that training has limits.
What are those limits? More or less, they are a matter of safety, or a controlled environment to reduce risk. Obviously a lot of training is going to have risk. The number of broken bones and similar injuries from jumping out of a plane is huge!
So, given that training is done "as safe as possible" and that certain types of activities are not done because they are "unsafe," there is a reasonable expectation that water boarding, when performed in a certain manner, is by some measure, "safe."
During training, I'm guessing the percentage of injuries from water boarding is much lower than that from jumping out of an airplane. So, if you consider it torture to do forced tandem jumps, then I guess that's your answer.
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pjp
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| aidanjt wrote: | | How do you expect to get coffee from Brazil, India, etc? Wishful thinking? Perhaps you can get a horse and cart that can transport 10,000 tonnes of coffee over the pacific. |
Any renewable energy would do!
| aidanjt wrote: | | The same wilful denial of reality. Can't really do anything with a mind like that. |
Amazingly, stupefyingly awesome willful denial of reality. Replace oil with anything suitably nonsensical to you.
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | Any renewable energy would do! |
Ah yes, back to clipper ships. Nice timely delivery before almost all of it spoils. 
Or maybe we can fill the decks with solar panels, and get a whole extra 0.0000001 knot during the day. Badass!
Ridiculous.
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| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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mcgruff
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 28 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | Obviously you are free to make your own choices, but I can still think it is a shame that you base your choice of operating system on something completely unrelated. |
There is a serious issue here about all the right-wing-nuttery on OTW and what sort of image it projects for Gentoo. It's time to drastically scale that back to no more than 1,000 new anti-Obama topics per day, and a new forum rule to enforce it.
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Prenj
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | | pjp wrote: | | Obviously you are free to make your own choices, but I can still think it is a shame that you base your choice of operating system on something completely unrelated. |
There is a serious issue here about all the right-wing-nuttery on OTW and what sort of image it projects for Gentoo. It's time to drastically scale that back to no more than 1,000 new anti-Obama topics per day, and a new forum rule to enforce it. |
How are anti-Obama posts any different then Rtards and ameritards posts? Except that they go against your own dogma and image of your beloved Messiah? |
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Muso
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Joined: 22 Oct 2002
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| Prenj wrote: | | mcgruff wrote: | | pjp wrote: | | Obviously you are free to make your own choices, but I can still think it is a shame that you base your choice of operating system on something completely unrelated. |
There is a serious issue here about all the right-wing-nuttery on OTW and what sort of image it projects for Gentoo. It's time to drastically scale that back to no more than 1,000 new anti-Obama topics per day, and a new forum rule to enforce it. |
How are anti-Obama posts any different then Rtards and ameritards posts? Except that they go against your own dogma and image of your beloved Messiah? |
And I never recall him complaining when all the political posts in OTW were anti-Bush.
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Prenj
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| Muso wrote: | | Prenj wrote: | | mcgruff wrote: | | pjp wrote: | | Obviously you are free to make your own choices, but I can still think it is a shame that you base your choice of operating system on something completely unrelated. |
There is a serious issue here about all the right-wing-nuttery on OTW and what sort of image it projects for Gentoo. It's time to drastically scale that back to no more than 1,000 new anti-Obama topics per day, and a new forum rule to enforce it. |
How are anti-Obama posts any different then Rtards and ameritards posts? Except that they go against your own dogma and image of your beloved Messiah? |
And I never recall him complaining when all the political posts in OTW were anti-Bush. |
If anything, they should be saying "yes we wanted to get rid of Bush, but FUCK were we ever duped by Obama". It would be manly thing to do, I'd say. |
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Muso
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| Prenj wrote: | | If anything, they should be saying "yes we wanted to get rid of Bush, but FUCK were we ever duped by Obama". It would be manly thing to do, I'd say. |
Definitely the honest thing to do.
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dmitchell
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | Oh dear indeed. But at least I have a possible explanation for your inability to answer the question. |
Sometimes I think we are speaking different languages. This is one of those times. I find your post incomprehensible; I have no idea what you are talking about.
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dmitchell
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| Muso wrote: | | D, that was low. The guy is quitting because of opinions he disagrees with are being expressed. |
I was just joking, I don't really think pjp has brain damage. As for the quitter, he can quit for whatever reason he wants and it's OK with me. I will say that I don't think pjp was technically advocating torture, so I think the guy quit over a misunderstanding.
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John-Boy
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | we have nothing to defend if we descend to their level. |
Here's an experiment for you. If intelligence derived from water boarding turned out to stop an
attack which would have affected somebody that you cared about, would you still be against its initial
use ?
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Muso
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Joined: 22 Oct 2002
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | Muso wrote: | | D, that was low. The guy is quitting because of opinions he disagrees with are being expressed. |
I was just joking, I don't really think pjp has brain damage. As for the quitter, he can quit for whatever reason he wants and it's OK with me. I will say that I don't think pjp was technically advocating torture, so I think the guy quit over a misunderstanding. |
Aye. Even if pjp were advocating cutting off limbs, would that be a reason to quit using a distro? His reasoning was daft at best.
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Prenj
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| John-Boy wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | we have nothing to defend if we descend to their level. |
Here's an experiment for you. If intelligence derived from water boarding turned out to stop an
attack which would have affected somebody that you cared about, would you still be against its initial
use ? |
Someone water-boarded Wall Street dudes? Damn, I missed that one.
Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDnpqEuiieo |
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juniper
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| John-Boy wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | we have nothing to defend if we descend to their level. |
Here's an experiment for you. If intelligence derived from water boarding turned out to stop an
attack which would have affected somebody that you cared about, would you still be against its initial
use ? |
given the probability of winning the lottery is close to nil, if I am given the winning numbers beforehand I would buy a ticket. Otherwise, I would not buy a ticket.
i.e. hindsight vs low probabilities affect my decision.
To answer your question directly - the probability that intelligence obtained from torturing someone would save a loved one of mine is so remote that I don't think it is justifies going down that path. Let's not forget the fall out from those actions as well. That is, torturing/attacking people may cause future attacks on us. |
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mcgruff
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah. I'm never quite sure what is the best thing to do with torturers: send them to jail or just send them back to school for an IQ boost.
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John-Boy
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | To answer your question directly - the probability that intelligence obtained from torturing someone would save a loved one of mine is so remote . |
You haven't answered the question, I didn't ask about perceived odds.
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nomilieu
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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@John-Boy: Are your views here specifically about waterboarding, or about the use of torture in general to obtain potentially life-saving information?
If only the former, then you're doing an odd job of taking up the "waterboarding isn't torture" angle.
If the latter, how do you sleep at night? Assuming you support the practice and you have guts, the implication is that you'd be willing to torture someone for information. |
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juniper
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| John-Boy wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | To answer your question directly - the probability that intelligence obtained from torturing someone would save a loved one of mine is so remote . |
You haven't answered the question, I didn't ask about perceived odds. |
I did answer it. But if you want a direct answer, it is "no, we shouldn't torture". |
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John-Boy
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| nomilieu wrote: | | If the latter, how do you sleep at night? |
Like a baby.
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doubleagent
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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"Torture is the act of inflicting severe pain (whether physical or psychological) as a means of punishment, revenge, forcing information or a confession, or simply as an act of cruelty."
Situational ethics is the idea that extreme circumstances warp morality such that typically evil acts align with pure motives and are therefore justified. Because I categorically deny situational ethics and the act of torture ( ie "Torture is the act of inflicting severe pain, whether physical or psychological" ) is clearly evil, I must say there are no circumstances or motives available to justify it.
Thanks.
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| shickapooka wrote: | | i think they programmed [otw] based on a right-wing jewish-nigger-nazi, his gay, retarded, left-wing love slave with webbed feet, and their three headed cat that poops uncontrollably. the cat is also an apple fanboy |
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John-Boy
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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In a situation wherein you have a member of a terrorist cell, the whole aim of which is to inflict
as much damage on you as possible, in custody and said terrorist member refuses to talk. I say
do whatever is needed.
Note this is different from water boarding, keeping them up past their bedtime or whatever
else people are hand wringing about. I mean do whatever is needed.
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