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dE_logics
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:52 am    Post subject: Why GCC stable at 4.5.3-r2? Reply with quote

Even Debian testing has moved to 4.7, but it's been AGES since Gentoo is stuck at 4.5. I didn't find many issues in bugzilla... what could be the problem?
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genstorm
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Packages fail with 4.6. Search for the tracker bug, the info is all there.
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe you checked https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=gcc-4.6 and noticed that at least grub cannot compile with 4.6 series
And as far as 4.7 is concerned, there are quite a lot of applications not compiling with it : https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=390247 together with the problem that it breaks the PaX gcc plugins needed for the hardened-sources.

What are the new features you are especially interested in ?
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just unmask it if you believe to be unaffected.

The issue with grub seems to be hard to reproduce, at least I don't have any issue compiling it (4.6.3).
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:42 am    Post subject: Re: Why GCC stable at 4.5.3-r2? Reply with quote

dE_logics wrote:
Even Debian testing has moved to 4.7, but it's been AGES since Gentoo is stuck at 4.5. I didn't find many issues in bugzilla... what could be the problem?


With all due respect, debian do not need to worry about +15k packages being able to compile with an infinite number of different configurations, architectures, configure options, CFLAGS, etc. They just need to be able to compile themselves to produce a binary that will be common for all the debian users.
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hilarious if you think of this comparison of Gentoo with other Distros:

3 -versus- infinite
states of software packages.

Gentoo has these 3 states of his software in effect:
-stable
-unstable
-unsupported

where others using their
-Releases (infinite)
-unstable
-experimental
-oldlibs(Debian)

The last would help in this regard (gcc):
Grub1 should have (the additional state) of "old"
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So there's still a lot of work remaining.
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Just unmask it if you believe to be unaffected.

The issue with grub seems to be hard to reproduce, at least I don't have any issue compiling it (4.6.3).


It's actually not that Grub compiled against GCC 4.6.3 fails to compile, the problem is MUCH weirder. It problem is, it compiles fine, it installs fine, but when you reboot after you do grub-install, it fails to start.
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, at least I thought I did all that and it worked for me. But not for some.
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jdhore wrote:
genstorm wrote:
Just unmask it if you believe to be unaffected.

The issue with grub seems to be hard to reproduce, at least I don't have any issue compiling it (4.6.3).


It's actually not that Grub compiled against GCC 4.6.3 fails to compile, the problem is MUCH weirder. It problem is, it compiles fine, it installs fine, but when you reboot after you do grub-install, it fails to start.

I just switched to Lilo after many many years with Grub (and getting lost with Grub2). Lilo can boot two kernels, current and failsafe, need no more. And has no mysterious problems with GCC.
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover wrote:
I just switched to Lilo

++
Jaglover wrote:
Lilo can boot two kernels.

8O I get 4 on a standard basis and sometimes 6.
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syslinux (specifically Extlinux) is another option. I've been using it on a 64-bit only system (no IA-32 emulation, no multilib -- meaning no GRUB) with no problems (but I don't dual boot or do anything fancy).
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
I believe you checked https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=gcc-4.6 and noticed that at least grub cannot compile with 4.6 series
And as far as 4.7 is concerned, there are quite a lot of applications not compiling with it : https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=390247 together with the problem that it breaks the PaX gcc plugins needed for the hardened-sources.

What are the new features you are especially interested in ?


Since when is Grub 1 not obsolete?

Quote:
With all due respect, debian do not need to worry about +15k packages being able to compile with an infinite number of different configurations, architectures, configure options, CFLAGS, etc. They just need to be able to compile themselves to produce a binary that will be common for all the debian users.

What? Since when is Gentoo a polished distribution instead of just collection of information allowing simpler building of everything from source?
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarekSieradzki wrote:
Quote:
With all due respect, debian do not need to worry about +15k packages being able to compile with an infinite number of different configurations, architectures, configure options, CFLAGS, etc. They just need to be able to compile themselves to produce a binary that will be common for all the debian users.

What? Since when is Gentoo a polished distribution instead of just collection of information allowing simpler building of everything from source?

It's a lot more than the latter, but it's not a polished binary distro: it's as polished as a source-distro can be imo.

The point still stands: gentoo has to be a lot more careful about pushing out a new major release of gcc, especially if it results in visible user-breakage of common system tools. The whole point is that due to the variability of configurations, settings which are frozen across a binary distro, it's not as simple as getting a set of tools working in just one configuration. And no, it's not sufficient to just forget about the subset of users who run into problems: rather the problem should be tracked down and fixed so everyone benefits, now and into the future.
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point is that Grub 1 isn't worth the maintenance cost.
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarekSieradzki wrote:
My point is that Grub 1 isn't worth the maintenance cost.

There is not really a stable alternative yet: The first grub2 not hanging forever on my machine was 2.00_beta0, and then the next betas were all broken in various ways. 2.00_beta5 seems again usable, but with such a releas policy (working, non-working, still-not-working, broken-in-another-way, working again) this is nothing one can use for a production system.
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
MarekSieradzki wrote:
Quote:
With all due respect, debian do not need to worry about +15k packages being able to compile with an infinite number of different configurations, architectures, configure options, CFLAGS, etc. They just need to be able to compile themselves to produce a binary that will be common for all the debian users.

What? Since when is Gentoo a polished distribution instead of just collection of information allowing simpler building of everything from source?

It's a lot more than the latter, but it's not a polished binary distro: it's as polished as a source-distro can be imo.

The point still stands: gentoo has to be a lot more careful about pushing out a new major release of gcc, especially if it results in visible user-breakage of common system tools. The whole point is that due to the variability of configurations, settings which are frozen across a binary distro, it's not as simple as getting a set of tools working in just one configuration. And no, it's not sufficient to just forget about the subset of users who run into problems: rather the problem should be tracked down and fixed so everyone benefits, now and into the future.


I am not going into that debate. If someone is not able to see what the difference is then s/he clearly lacks the background to argue with me about that. Not that I am ubber or something, it's just evident...

The main point here is that Debian or Ubuntu users do not need to care about their gcc being able to compile their whole system. They only need to care about gcc being able to compile their own personal projects, which they develop, and which they can fix themselves if some issue arises.
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarekSieradzki wrote:
My point is that Grub 1 isn't worth the maintenance cost.


I am sure that grub is not what's holding gcc 4.7 from being stabilized. But, if you want things to happen faster, you can always join and help with grub2, gcc or whatever else. Every hand is welcome. :D
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As noted in an earlier post with the bugzilla link, gcc 7 is getting stabilized. The 'broken packages' list is being whittled down by upstream maintainers relatively quickly. I have gcc 7 installed and the vast majority of my packages build fine. Linux kernel compiles and runs fine with it...and gcc 7 compiles noticeably faster on many packages. So start using gcc 7 and sending bug reports to get it done faster.
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

platojones wrote:
As noted in an earlier post with the bugzilla link, gcc 7 is getting stabilized. The 'broken packages' list is being whittled down by upstream maintainers relatively quickly. I have gcc 7 installed and the vast majority of my packages build fine. Linux kernel compiles and runs fine with it...and gcc 7 compiles noticeably faster on many packages. So start using gcc 7 and sending bug reports to get it done faster.

Except, you know, you can't build firefox or chromium with it (I'm assuming you really mean gcc 4.7). Considering that 4.6 is still hard masked and 4.7 isn't even in portage yet, this is probably a really bad idea unless you want to break things…
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trick is to use this little patch:
Code:
iff --git a/libgcc/gthr-posix.h b/libgcc/gthr-posix.h
index b5b1611..d6f2ace 100644
--- a/libgcc/gthr-posix.h
+++ b/libgcc/gthr-posix.h
@@ -34,6 +34,7 @@ see the files COPYING3 and COPYING.RUNTIME respectively.  If not, see
 #define __GTHREADS_CXX0X 1
 
 #include <pthread.h>
+#include <unistd.h>
 
 #if ((defined(_LIBOBJC) || defined(_LIBOBJC_WEAK)) \
      || !defined(_GTHREAD_USE_MUTEX_TIMEDLOCK))

With this almost all gcc-4.7 compile failures will disappear.
I'm using 4.7 since the beginning of this year without any problems.
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarekSieradzki wrote:
My point is that Grub 1 isn't worth the maintenance cost.

No, that was your first point, which I left alone. Your second point was that Gentoo is not really a distro but "just [a] collection of information allowing simpler building of everything from source" which is untrue of Gentoo, but might be true of LFS. Gentoo gives you the tools to maintain an installation, or many installations, customised to your specs and built from source.

With respect to grub, I haven't looked at the code, so I don't know what changes when you compile with gcc-4.6 vs 4.5; irrespective, gcc is generating code that no longer works. In any event, afaict it's a simple fix (add -fno-reorder-functions) which has been incorporated, although another culprit appears to be a patch to allow placing /boot above the 1TB limit, a patch which most other distros like fedora and ubuntu don't use. See bug 360513. I think the best option would be just to stop using that distro-specific patch, especially since it doesn't even appear to work (comment 81).
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here, grub2 doesn't even compile. My last build was 09/03/11, and since then then compile always failed.
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EatMeerkats wrote:

Except, you know, you can't build firefox or chromium with it (I'm assuming you really mean gcc 4.7). Considering that 4.6 is still hard masked and 4.7 isn't even in portage yet, this is probably a really bad idea unless you want to break things…


Sure, several big package don't compile yet, but as I said, most things do. I know Chromium is already getting attention. 4.7 is the official gcc release now.

Skip 4.6, it's a dead end...we're talking 4.7.

And yes, it's not in portage yet, but will be very soon...for know, I'm just pulling from the toolchain overlay. And I'm not using it exclusively...I switch back and forth betwee 4.5.3 and 4.7...it's easy to do with gcc-config.
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just look at the respective tracker bugs 4.6 vs 4.7 and expect much, much more to come for the latter as it gets more testing (see gcc-4.5 and 4.4 trackers for clues). So stabilizing 4.6 is really more realistic unless you are prepared to wait even longer for 4.7, and it helps progression anyway.
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