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gnuageux
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another reason you could have given is that w/ Gentoo you dont run into dependency hell!
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I honestly think that there is one reason, and one reason only, that certain long-time devotees of other distros try so hard to bash Gentoo: They are totally pissed off that Gentoo is producing a vast number of productive Linux users who, for the first time, are able to leave Windows behind because now, they finally understand Linux. This pisses them off, because the L33T status they so covet is now being diluted by the masses.

In short: The Gentoo bashers are techno-Alchemists who are angry that the whole world seems to be learning what Chemistry really is, and understanding it.

I myself used to use Mandrake on several servers, without really understanding Linux. I made it work. I got by. Only with Gentoo was I able to make the leap to the desktop, and the laptop. And not only make the leap, but understand the system from top to bottom. If I had to, I could now invent my own LFS system, built entirely from source. Only on Gentoo can you find a learning curve that, however gradually, reaches such heights.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

teilo wrote:
I honestly think that there is one reason, and one reason only, that certain long-time devotees of other distros try so hard to bash Gentoo: They are totally pissed off that Gentoo is producing a vast number of productive Linux users who, for the first time, are able to leave Windows behind because now, they finally understand Linux. This pisses them off, beca


To quote funroll-loops.org

"Watching shit scroll by for hours made me a Linux guru over night."

Honestly you can become a Linux guru using any distro, over the nearly 6 years I've used this fine OS, I have done amongst many things, LFS, Gentoo and debian - I learned by far the most with the latter - why?
Easy because I reached the point where I needed to do something, and I had to figure out how.. It's more a question of timing. When do you hit an issue in your everyday life that requires you to read the manual and figure out a solution on your own, it might never happen, it might happen tomorrow.. it might happen on Gentoo, it might happen on SuSE..

Simply saying that Gentoo makes people smarter is an assumption without evidence to back it.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Honestly you can become a Linux guru using any distro, over the nearly 6 years I've used this fine OS, I have done amongst many things, LFS, Gentoo and debian - I learned by far the most with the latter - why?
Easy because I reached the point where I needed to do something, and I had to figure out how.. It's more a question of timing. When do you hit an issue in your everyday life that requires you to read the manual and figure out a solution on your own, it might never happen, it might happen tomorrow.. it might happen on Gentoo, it might happen on SuSE..

Simply saying that Gentoo makes people smarter is an assumption without evidence to back it.


Did I say that Gentoo makes people smarter? Where? Please, don't patronize me. If anyone feels the necessity to bash Gentoo based upon the lame comments of some Gentoo users, who is being the more foolish? For every inane comment in these forums, such as you cited, there are 1,000 that are cogent and well-informed.

I would never criticize your or anyone else's choice of distribution. If others do not give me the same courtesy, that is a weakness on their part.

My original comment stands: Gentoo is indeed giving a vast number of people the ability to learn when otherwise the internals would be hidden from them (Suse, Mandrake, RedHat/Fedora), or the learning curve would be too steep (LFS). I have watched many such users just give up and go back to Windows, whereas, for whatever reason, Gentoo just worked for them, as it did for me.

It is not necessarily the distro to which you are first exposed. I have waded through the miasm of distributions for enough years to know this. I tried Red Hat, Suse, and Mandrake on the desktop. If something didn't work, I had nowhere to turn to understand and fix the problem. Not so with Gentoo. Why do you think it is that so many users of other distros are coming here to get their questions answered? This is not a raw coincidence. It is because so many people here have the answers, and a good percentage of them have the answers because they have learned from the experience of working hands-on with source-code, patches, kernel config, drive-layout, and the numerous text-files in /etc.

It is the principle of positive feedback: When you have at least some successes, you are driven to persevere, learn more, try more things, and the cycle repeats itself. I do not say the same thing could not happen with other distributions, but I will say that it happens here to a greater extent. As to why that may be, judge for yourself.

Perhaps this means that many Gentoo users will indeed leave, and head to distros unknown, adding their knowledge and experience to a new user-base. If so, then this is a wonderful thing, and you have Gentoo to thank for it, even if that fact sticks in your craw. ;-)
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I've got to say about that...I wouldn't consider myself a guru in anyway of Linux, but I know I'm not a noob. I've installed: Connectiva 9, Red Hat 9, Fedora 1, tried to install Fedora2, something sketchy about my HDD existing :lol: Mandrake 9.2, Mandrake 10, Lindows 4.5. I can tell you I'm doing a dual boot system between Windows and <insert distro here> all the time. Recently my friend said that I should give Gentoo a try, as I've tinkered around with different distros for long enough, always finding....a certain issue with each. What I can say is although I haven't been using Gentoo long (a week or so) it is an excellent choice if you have some time to do the install. It is FASTER. and only Mandrake 10 and Connectiva 9 come close. It obviously does NOT have the EASIEST setup, but hey, you want flexibility? Also, Linux is not about what is BEST it is about CHOICES. Notice, there's the choice between WM and DE, and even within those catagories KDE and Gnome, etc. I loved Connectiva 9 but as it was my first distro, well you can guess how that went over, because although a very nice distro, installation is a bit tricky (you have to do individual package selection...not noob-friendly - i think correct me if im wrong...)
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd have to agree with people when it comes to the fact that running gentoo doesnt make you a linux guru. Its just another distro. I also have run several distros from the days of good ol RH 6.x - - - 9, Suse, etc. I love gentoo but the fact that its my distro of choice doesnt make me a guru. To me its almost like saying "I use crisco, not Riverstone. Therefore I am a network engineer". Whatever.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gnuageux wrote:
I'd have to agree with people when it comes to the fact that running gentoo doesnt make you a linux guru. Its just another distro. I also have run several distros from the days of good ol RH 6.x - - - 9, Suse, etc. I love gentoo but the fact that its my distro of choice doesnt make me a guru. To me its almost like saying "I use crisco, not Riverstone. Therefore I am a network engineer". Whatever.


/me applauds
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gnuageux wrote:
I'd have to agree with people when it comes to the fact that running gentoo doesnt make you a linux guru. Its just another distro. I also have run several distros from the days of good ol RH 6.x - - - 9, Suse, etc. I love gentoo but the fact that its my distro of choice doesnt make me a guru. To me its almost like saying "I use crisco, not Riverstone. Therefore I am a network engineer". Whatever.


<sigh> Why do people insist upon putting words into my mouth.

Speaking of putting words into one's mouth, your typo is too good to pass up.

Crisco and self-rendered lard both accomplish basically the same thing. To say they are equal in all circumstances, however, is ridiculous. Gentoo has a particular following because it has particular strengths. Not all distros are created equal. IF you are looking for an easy-to-install and upgrade, commercially supported distribution, then Gentoo is definitely not for you. IF you are looking for a distribution which will give you greater insight into how Linux works, Gentoo may well be what you are looking for. IF you want a distribution which gives you greater flexibility, Gentoo may well be a match. IF you are looking for a distro that will make you a Linux Guru overnight, you are a fool.

Which brings me back to my point: People use Gentoo, not because they are fools, or mis-informed, or deluded, or RICERS, but because it has certain advantages over other distributions. To bash them because of their choice is a fools game, and reveals one to be either a techno-elitist, or insecure in his own choices, or perhaps delights in the humiliation of others.

One final note: You can always treat Gentoo just like any binary distribution out there, and learn just enough to get by and get your work done. Many in fact do so, because for them, the point is NOT to learn linux, but to build a box that works. What attracts them to Gentoo? Ask them yourself and find out. Maybe their reasons are legitimate. Maybe not. But many of us, maybe even most of us, use Gentoo to learn, and learn well. Could we have learned on another distribution? Of course we could have. Gentoo just makes it easier for us, so we choose Gentoo. We love it. We are devoted to it. Is that a problem? Then by all means, go ahead and bash away, if it makes you feel better.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

some rh vetrans at the current LUG bashed me for even trying gentoo with really no reason, i just told them that they need to try it.
and my honest experience is that rh and mdk relatively crawl in comparison with gentoo.
gentoo might not be alot more faster than slack and debian, but it sure is more documented, current and has a responsive community. its not for everyone but its for me.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gentoo for me is fighting my computer...

portage works 90% of the time, but still isn't perfect. currently xfsprogs and entrance won't work for me.

then there are issues with hardware -- i've had issues with video, networking, mouse, and sound. this isn't only in gentoo, but other distros as well. but gentoo seems to bring it upon themselves sometimes.

the forum support for me isn't all that good. if you ever have a real problem you might as well just wait a month and hope the new version of programX has a patch for it... i really wish people wouldn't promote it as such a good thing on other forums -- doing so will make people think they can count on forum help. given that i've had about a 15% success rate on the forums, well, i'd say the forums are for chatting and not for help.

the only thing that keeps me from reinstalling windows is that i don't need my computer all that badly. i reinstall gentoo biweekly trying to fix stuff. so far i've never gotten sound + networking + video + mouse all working together as well as they work in windows -- never. i've found gnome and kde are also much slower then windows when it comes to daily use -- firefox takes 3 seconds to load, as does kcalc, gedit, ect... some apps take over 30 seconds to load.

i'd probably have a better opinion of gentoo if it were faster or worked with hardware. i had a very fast, very stable windows setup that i only got rid of because of all the worms and virii that i could get. and even then reinstalling the system took only an hour. i like the flexibility, but come august something will be on my computer -- gentoo or otherwise, its gotta make me feel like i'm at my 1800+ and not my TB900...
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FACTS IN MY UNIVERSE:

1. My dodgy laptop runs faster than on RedHat 9, Fedora & Mandrake.
2. Binaries could hide backdoors visible with the source.
3. I've never waited more than a couple of days for an ANSWER to a support question,but maybe I ask the right/easy questions.
4. Six years of Linux from Caldera OpenLinux . to Fedora C1 - I've learnt more about Linux in the last couple of months of Gentoo.
5. Even my winmodem likes it - if I used it anymore :).
6. I like making 'shit scroll by'.
7. etc etc

Why do people bother bashing Gentoo? Doesn't such an exercise in futility say something about them? No one makes you compile KDE. I don't bash other distros - not even Windows - honest! ;D
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hollerith wrote:
2. Binaries could hide backdoors visible with the source.


Source and unsigned ebuilds you download from untrusted gentoo mirrors can contain the same. Nobody reads every code line of the packages she installs. That argument is nonsense. Actually the signed debs or rpms from the big distros are more secure than Gentoo's ebuilds. The compromised Gentoo server last year shows that the injection of compromised software into Gentoo is a very real danger. But that topic was already discussed a thousand times.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asimon wrote:
hollerith wrote:
2. Binaries could hide backdoors visible with the source.


Source and unsigned ebuilds you download from untrusted gentoo mirrors can contain the same. Nobody reads every code line of the packages she installs. That argument is nonsense. Actually the signed debs or rpms from the big distros are more secure than Gentoo's ebuilds. The compromised Gentoo server last year shows that the injection of compromised software into Gentoo is a very real danger. But that topic was already discussed a thousand times.


How do you know nobody ever looks at the source? What just because you don't? Wow, that's logical!

Look its not that hard -

Fact 1. You can't read a binary (very easily)
Fact 2. You CAN read source - if you are so inclined so you have the ability/opton to verify that it is not compromised which you do NOT with a binary.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hollerith wrote:


Look its not that hard -

Fact 1. You can't read a binary (very easily)
Fact 2. You CAN read source - if you are so inclined so you have the ability/opton to verify that it is not compromised which you do NOT with a binary.


Well the last part of 2 is not stricktly true, if the binary to signed, and you trust the signer you can verify it. If the signer is the original programmer, then your a fool not to trust it, if the signer is a distro, then chances are good.

The other point to consider is that thought you *can* read the source, if there is no system in place to do so, how can you be certain that anyone has? Its all about levels of trust.

I am personally happy with the md5 system thats in place, and will be more happy when the move to pgp signed ebuilds happens.

But at the same time, a signed (or even md5'd) binary should be just as secure.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do the Gentoo bashers even matter? They don't matter to me. I know that Gentoo is good, and that for me it is better than the other distros. Gentoo gives me the tools I need to build a fast, stable system the way I want it, and it doesn't get in my way. After working all day on Windows 2000 machines, coming home to my Enlightenment desktop on Gentoo is a welcome relief.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The more I read the more I think Gentoo IS for ricers. 8O
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asimon wrote:
The more I read the more I think Gentoo IS for ricers. 8O


That's all right. Your opinion of Gentoo doesn't matter to me either.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nevynxxx wrote:

Well the last part of 2 is not stricktly true, if the binary to signed, and you trust the signer you can verify it. If the signer is the original programmer, then your a fool not to trust it, if the signer is a distro, then chances are good.


Bizarre! How does that make it untrue? Diff can let you see what changes have been made in each revision. It is still 100% absolutely true. If you have the source files then you can open vi and go crazy. If its in the source its hardly hidden is it? Obsfuscated maybe, difficult to spot yes, Invisible no. The point is you don't have to trust anybody. If you miss something its your own fault and nobody elses. You have no choice but to trust a binary.

See, you're talking about you again. This was my universe remember. What is an acceptable level of trust or 'chances' for you is utterly irrelevant. As is whether you think I'd be a fool not to trust a file signed, unsigned or whatever or even whether you prefer debian to gentoo. Closed source is one of the major arguments for government agencies not to use M$ as they can easily sign binaries. Its about transparency. The fact remains that there is a (perhaps to you only a theoretical) qualitative difference and I'm sorry if you are unable or unwilling to understand that but it is a fact.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My answer to Anandtech's latest 64-bit benchmarks
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hollerith wrote:


Bizarre! How does that make it untrue? Diff can let you see what changes have been made in each revision. It is still 100% absolutely true. If you have the source files then you can open vi and go crazy. If its in the source its hardly hidden is it? Obsfuscated maybe, difficult to spot yes, Invisible no. The point is you don't have to trust anybody. If you miss something its your own fault and nobody elses. You have no choice but to trust a binary.

See, you're talking about you again. This was my universe remember. What is an acceptable level of trust or 'chances' for you is utterly irrelevant. As is whether you think I'd be a fool not to trust a file signed, unsigned or whatever or even whether you prefer debian to gentoo. Closed source is one of the major arguments for government agencies not to use M$ as they can easily sign binaries. Its about transparency. The fact remains that there is a (perhaps to you only a theoretical) qualitative difference and I'm sorry if you are unable or unwilling to understand that but it is a fact.


It was the very last part that was "not stricktly true", the part about not being able to read the binary.

What is the difference between
1) reading the source you build from
2) reading some source, which you downloaded from a website, along with an MD5 sum. Then compairing the MD5 sum with the binary you have downloaded?

In both cases you can see source and verify that the binary is built from that source, unless you don't trust the original programmer.

We seem to be speaking the same language, we agree it is a matter of trust. I trust people in RedHat, Suse etc to provide binaries from un tampered with source, you don't.

The only difference is you say your way is more secure, it is not more secure unless you read every line of code yourself. If you do that then we agree 100% if you do not then we don't. My only problem with your view is you didn't put the rider "you must read 100% of the source you download for this to be true" along with your original statement, that leads to this sort of argument :)

Peace?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hollerith wrote:
The point is you don't have to trust anybody.
You have to trust the compiler, which in the case of Gentoo means trusting the stage tarball you downloaded. Take a look at this; it's rather an interesting read if you haven't seen it before.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nevynxxx wrote:


It was the very last part that was "not stricktly true", the part about not being able to read the binary.


What is the difference between
1) reading the source you build from
2) reading some source, which you downloaded from a website, along with an MD5 sum. Then compairing the MD5 sum with the binary you have downloaded?

In both cases you can see source and verify that the binary is built from that source, unless you don't trust the original programmer.

We seem to be speaking the same language, we agree it is a matter of trust. I trust people in RedHat, Suse etc to provide binaries from un tampered with source, you don't.

The only difference is you say your way is more secure, it is not more secure unless you read every line of code yourself. If you do that then we agree 100% if you do not then we don't. My only problem with your view is you didn't put the rider "you must read 100% of the source you download for this to be true" along with your original statement, that leads to this sort of argument :)

Peace?


Okay, now I am struggling - especially as I have to write my own compiler to compile and so on. :)

I did say one can't read binaries 'very easily' - I know they can be reversed.

Of course, you would have to check every line and even dry-run it as the self-modifying code example shows too.

Yes, I don't trust Microsoft programmers but I'm happy the possibility that someone somewhere might stumble on a backdoor is usually enough to put official covert operators off (but not script-kiddies etc I know).

Of course, I use binaries now and again and I don't even do a checksum.

I still hold the statement to be true in itself. Although, to actually check it is only realistic for a vanishing small proportion perhaps none, it simply doesn't make sense to put a backdoor in something lots of people are poring over trying to debug and could be discovered by accident by original programmer or whomever. My point is you don't have to check.

And of course, peace. :D Flames are for ricers (whatever they are)
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I honestly could not imagine running my desktop on a different distro. My home server box is still running RH9, but that's due to the fact that I'm too lazy to back everything up, tear it down and rebuild it. It runs RH9, but I hate it. I never update anything. I just use it as a file dumping ground. All my company's servers run Gentoo now.

I find Gentoo easy to work with, and there is tons of support on the forums and website. RH is now a joke. The only reasonable alternative is Debian, but I don't recommend it.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mozilla started in half the time it spent loading under Debian, the first day I installed Gentoo 1.4.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cryptodev wrote:
I honestly could not imagine running my desktop on a different distro. My home server box is still running RH9, but that's due to the fact that I'm too lazy to back everything up, tear it down and rebuild it. It runs RH9, but I hate it. I never update anything. I just use it as a file dumping ground. All my company's servers run Gentoo now.

I find Gentoo easy to work with, and there is tons of support on the forums and website. RH is now a joke.


That's quite true. Gentoo has an excellent online documentation. It's better than what you find on most commercial distributions. And Gentoo has a very informed user base -- altough you cant compare forums with paid and guaranteed support from experts.

cryptodev wrote:
The only reasonable alternative is Debian, but I don't recommend it.


I agree on Debian being the only good alternative. But unlike you, I do recommend Debian for corporate servers. Debian has some strenghts over Gentoo in that field. They have a good choice of pre-packaged software, speed of installation, fast deploying of security updates, and easier maintenance.

But Debian has many drawbacks as well. We're using Debian on our servers, and we need to pull stuff constantly from unstable branch of packages (which is no-good, if you don't know Debian), because old versions of the packages are buggy and the road for a package from unstable through testing to stable is long and hard in Debian.

So, the usefulness of Debian, like Gentoo, depends on many factors. If a corporation requires 24/7 phone support for all it's servers, then RH is no longer a joke.
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