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Nreal
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:52 am    Post subject: Remove gnome 3 from portage Reply with quote

I think that should be done. I really miss that old 2.3 style gnome desktop, this new one is just garbage.

What do you think about that?

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
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Kollin
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sigh.
It's a matter of taste. I became kde user because i thought that gnome2 was ugly 'beyond all reason' 8)
I tried gnome3 two weeks ago and must say: It's quite good actually :wink:
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Kiwon Um
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I 300% agree with Kollin. It's really a matter of taste. :(
I'm using Gnome3 now, and it's quite satisfactory. Give the fallback mode a try if you're just missing old style. Cheer! :wink:
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wizulis
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gnome 3 is the future and present, Gnome 2 is the past.

It would be foolish to remove a program from portage and replace it with a program from the past, just because you don't like how the new versions look.

You are in the open source world, if you believe someone is doing his job wrong or your vision of a program does not coincides with developers vision, fork it and create your own version. Gnome 2 fans are already doing it - [url]http://cinnamon.linuxmint.com/ [/url].
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jdhore
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally DESPISE GNOME3. However, especially on a distro like Gentoo, it should not be removed from portage. Currently, even if you're on ~arch, you have a quite simple option to avoid installing it (there's a list of lines to put in your package.mask file...It's listed in the GNOME3 FAQ here on this forum and in other various places). If the future, when/if GNOME2 is removed from portage, you have many options. I'm *SURE* there will be a mate overlay or a gnome-2 overlay, and even if there isn't, it's trivial to keep that package.mask and copy all the GNOME2 ebuilds from the main tree to a local overlay (though you may have to deal with compile issues on library upgrades, which is why a semi-official overlay is likely a better option).
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DaggyStyle
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Remove gnome 3 from portage Reply with quote

Nreal wrote:
I think that should be done. I really miss that old 2.3 style gnome desktop, this new one is just garbage.

What do you think about that?

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:


so according to your logic, as I despise the DE named gnome, it should be removed entirely from portage, then KDE as someone else despise it, then lxde, then that gnome like smaller brother that is the main de for xubuntu (don't remember the name), soon we won't have any package in the repos, it is time to close gentoo. :)
blabber (AKA Balmer) will be more than happy.

problem solved, next :)
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vote with your feet. Try something new or use "Mate"
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have yet to find a de that I actually like, except gnome2 or kde3. But if I stick to those, I find that I miss out on new things, or that new things don't work properly, take gtk3 for example. We don't have to like everything perfectly, we just need something that works, and right now for me, Gnome3 just works.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use and like gnome3/gnome-shell myself, but of course I agree that it's not for everyone. If you really like the gnome2 style interface, I highly recommend trying out cinnamon, it's the gnome2-like gnome-shell fork from the Mint guys.
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bigbangnet
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

idk about you guys but when i look for gnome 3 it says its masked on my side. so it must be for a good reason lol. If its not suppose to be masked then something is wrong with my Gentoo.

I don't care if its ugly, I want it to be useful...not cute. I hate cute. Everything that is cute I tend to remove it after a while. Take windows aeros and all that neat stuff including gadgets. It's all removed. I doesn't serve any true purpose to me. Besides gnome 3 makes me think of apple gui which I don't like anyway.
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iamben
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is no longer hard masked (via package.mask) but it is still in testing/unstable (~arch keyword). So full stable users won't get it, yet.
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bigbangnet
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iamben wrote:
It is no longer hard masked (via package.mask) but it is still in testing/unstable (~arch keyword). So full stable users won't get it, yet.


Not to bitch but why would I use an unstable/testing package on Gentoo ? Is this a legit way to bitch about it and whine if something is not right ? Sorry, I'll stick with gnome 2 or anything thats stable that way I wont bitch out it.

Seriously, I don't understand, its considered unstable or still in testing and some (the op ?) wants gnome 3 to be removed ? Something is not coherent here ?
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iamben
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, in general, the testing/unstable branch is there so that these packages can get the testing they need before they *can be* marked stable. Somebody's gotta try them.

I think OP is being a bit dramatic that gnome3 should be totally *removed* from portage, just because he doesn't like it. As always, you are free to use whatever versions you want, and whatever other DE/WM's you like. I've already seen a few mask files floating around to mask all of gnome3, but I really believe that the best way forward will be one of the gnome-shell alternatives on gnome3. These you to move up to the modern gnome3, but with a familiar gnome2-like interface, if that's what you prefer.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was a KDE 4.2- 4.7 user, I switched to Openbox 3.5 a couple of months ago and since Feb 1 2012, I'm using Gnome 3.2.1.

Compare to KDE, it's fast as hell.

About Gnome, I use the Gentoo Gnome Extension package and I'm really happy with that.

Gnome Extension are there today because of all the flamewar about the Gnome 2.x versus 3.x design.

So let our users choose which WM they want to install :P Gnome 3.x is here to stay.
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Clad in Sky
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: Remove gnome 3 from portage Reply with quote

Nreal wrote:
I think that should be done. I really miss that old 2.3 style gnome desktop, this new one is just garbage.

What do you think about that?

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:


Bad idea for the reasons mentioned above.

Have you tried XFCE? Looks like Gnome 2.3 - more or less. I use it on my laptop and it is fast and nice.

Cinnamon and the Gnome Extensions look promising, though. Perhaps I should give Gnome3 a chance.
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salahx
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the complaints about GNOME 3 are really about the GNOME shell. I have some Fedora machines with GNOME 3 (although I've never had the change to use the GNOME shell because the nouveau driver corrupts the display and locks the keyboard on all of them when acceleration is enabled)

So don't dismiss GNOME 3 simply because of a small part (albeit the most visible one) of it.
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gcb
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kollin wrote:
Sigh.
It's a matter of taste. I became kde user because i thought that gnome2 was ugly 'beyond all reason' 8)
I tried gnome3 two weeks ago and must say: It's quite good actually :wink:


it's not a matter of taste. I don't want to start a flame war or say that any WM is better than another, but this has to be understood on the gnome3 vs gnome2 case: most of the people that complain does not do so because of TASTE. most of the time it's a usability issue.

it's plain simply the case of being forced to use a 'update' that lacks 80% of the functionality.

ok, you can still move windows and all the basic stuff.

but there's no way to have focus-follow-mouse, no way to not raise-window-on-click. I could go on and on. but there's bug reports for all that.

basically, they removed all of the configurability and replaced it with a mac osX clone. it's fine when it's for stuff like aesthetics. but it bleeds to many other areas too.
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iamben
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think "taste" includes both usability/behavior, and aesthetics. If so many people love it, and so many hate it, clearly it is a matter of taste.

I believe focus-follows-mouse is available in gnome-tweak-tool, and while I don't totally understand "not raise-window-on-click" it seems like something that could be trivially implemented via an extension to gnome-shell, if it hasn't already been. Maybe a lot of the functionality you came to expect from gnome2 is now moved to extensions, but it's not the end of the world.
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Leio
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The GNOME team will keep maintaining GNOME-2.32 in the official tree at least until a GNOME 3 version is stabilized there.
What happens with the GNOME 2 series beyond that is uncertain at this point. It seems unlikely that any of the current Gentoo GNOME team member will keep on maintaining it at that point, which would leave it bitrotting and in the way of easier maintaining of the GNOME 3 series — proper course of action then would be to remove it from the tree and without any other workable choices appearing, we will eventually really do so.

For users that want to stick to the old desktop metaphors, even after trying out gnome-shell for a while (it can take time to get used to it, after which a surprising amount of users start to like and love it after initially hating it), or not having had the time to give gnome-shell a chance yet or it really wasn't their cup of tea, then projects such as Cinnamon could provide a satisfactory solution. These make use of currently maintained libraries and library versions (built on top of GTK+-3) and so aren't so big of a maintenance problem as they don't cause us to have to keep around GNOME2 library slots and a big set of non-libraries that can't be installed together at versions 2 and 3 (making co-existence of GNOME-2 and GNOME-3 on one system impossible, unlike how GNOME-3, Cinnamon, KDE, XFCE and so on can peacefully be installed at the same time with a selection in GDM, KDM, whatever).
This leaves with users for whom these projects (cinnamon and a few other apparently less successful tries) really aren't suitable and those environments where OpenGL does not work at all, or bug-free/performant enough. There's of course also GNOME3 fallback mode for now, but it's not quite clear yet if it will be kept around upstream going forward, plus we understand it has also many feature regressions/loss compared to GNOME-2. With upcoming GNOME-3.4 and software OpenGL (mesa and co) stack, it may be possible to run gnome-shell and other OpenGL variants (cinnamon?) at a satisfactory speed on performant enough CPU's with full software OpenGL thanks to advancements in that area (specifically targetted for that), solving that problem for some environments. And there's also MATE desktop, of which I don't know enough about (does it already or does it intend to use GTK+-3, etc).

Regarding GNOME 3 stabilization (and therefore when GNOME 2 likely becomes de facto unmaintained) we started a wiki page to try to track the regressions over GNOME 2, so that we can make a well informed decision on when we can introduce GNOME 3 to the stable tree. This list is at http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/GNOME/GNOME3_Stable - you can add your own items there in a separate section for consideration, or e-mail gnome at gentoo dot org if you don't want to bother with a wiki account (in which case please prefix the e-mail subject for easier distinguishing by us, like "gnome3 stabilization: <short desc of your item>".
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Nreal
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gcb wrote:
Kollin wrote:
Sigh.
It's a matter of taste. I became kde user because i thought that gnome2 was ugly 'beyond all reason' 8)
I tried gnome3 two weeks ago and must say: It's quite good actually :wink:


it's not a matter of taste. I don't want to start a flame war or say that any WM is better than another, but this has to be understood on the gnome3 vs gnome2 case: most of the people that complain does not do so because of TASTE. most of the time it's a usability issue.

it's plain simply the case of being forced to use a 'update' that lacks 80% of the functionality.

ok, you can still move windows and all the basic stuff.

but there's no way to have focus-follow-mouse, no way to not raise-window-on-click. I could go on and on. but there's bug reports for all that.

basically, they removed all of the configurability and replaced it with a mac osX clone. it's fine when it's for stuff like aesthetics. but it bleeds to many other areas too.


The functionality was the main reason for me to have gnome as my desktop, now i´m really wondering when to do eix-sync next time with my gnome 2.3 desktops. I cant help, but this feels like loosing something here..

Fallback to Stone Age is not my cup of tea :idea:
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gcb
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iamben wrote:
I think "taste" includes both usability/behavior, and aesthetics. If so many people love it, and so many hate it, clearly it is a matter of taste.

I believe focus-follows-mouse is available in gnome-tweak-tool, and while I don't totally understand "not raise-window-on-click" it seems like something that could be trivially implemented via an extension to gnome-shell, if it hasn't already been. Maybe a lot of the functionality you came to expect from gnome2 is now moved to extensions, but it's not the end of the world.


when it's about usability, it's 'need' not taste.

no focus follow mouse on the tweak tool. i could enable it via the gconf tool with some trouble. but the not raise window on click is impossible. even during gnome2 it was difficult. i had to use compiz just because of that feature, not there's not even complex workarounds yet.

and the basic stuff, like having to learn javascript just to have a battery information on the panel... loosing work for low battery is hardly 'taste'.

the idea of having everything non-window-manager outside of gnome and provided by extensions, is terrific. I all for it. but do not force a switch until there's at least a minimum of those written. also, the web installer for firefox is a also a good idea. scary from security, but good. only thing is it's not tested at all. impossible to use with iceweasel on debian for example.
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gcb
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leio wrote:
For users that want to stick to the old desktop metaphors, even after trying out gnome-shell for a while


it's the worst of both worlds :(

i don't know if the fall back mode is this, pardon me if not. but using the fallback mode you have the outdated window manager (the new IS cool, no argue with that) with all the missing functionality.

When i was forced to use gnome3 for the first time under ubuntu there was not even a way to set up keyboard shortcuts... yet it was good enough to force on the users.
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iamben
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you require for usability, is personal.

I don't know if we're using the same gnome3. My gnome-tweak-tool allows "Window focus mode" to be set to "mouse" which is focus-follows-mouse. My panel has a battery meter out of the box.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Remove gnome 3 from portage Reply with quote

DaggyStyle wrote:
so according to your logic, as I despise the DE named gnome, it should be removed entirely from portage, then KDE as someone else despise it, then lxde, then that gnome like smaller brother that is the main de for xubuntu (don't remember the name), soon we won't have any package in the repos, it is time to close gentoo. :)
blabber (AKA Balmer) will be more than happy.

:lol:
DaggyStyle wrote:
problem solved, next :)

Next ? well... I... despise your post ! :wink:
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Leio
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gcb wrote:
Leio wrote:
For users that want to stick to the old desktop metaphors, even after trying out gnome-shell for a while


it's the worst of both worlds :(

i don't know if the fall back mode is this, pardon me if not. but using the fallback mode you have the outdated window manager (the new IS cool, no argue with that) with all the missing functionality.


I'm not sure which alternative you are talking about here. After the cut quote I talked about cinnamon, which builds a more traditional desktop on top of 3D, but you seem to talk about gnome-fallback instead.
The "outdated" window manager used in fallback, metacity, is very very polished in regards to _window management_, it doesn't have much of those fancy effects and so on, but window management it is very goot at - that's why mutter was also based on metacity code - the window management stuff works very well in that codebase. The point of gnome-fallback is to provide an alternative for those whose OpenGL in their computer environment doesn't work well enough, and that's where metacity comes in - it's pure 2D, no OpenGL.

gcb wrote:
When i was forced to use gnome3 for the first time under ubuntu there was not even a way to set up keyboard shortcuts... yet it was good enough to force on the users.

I hope you don't have Ubuntu Unity in mind here, instead of a polished gnome-shell environment.
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