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ppurka
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Static -> HAL -> *Kit -> systemd -> ???

So what's going to come after systemd?
Gnome5. It will handle everything from grub to the UI in order to give you a "seamless" experience. Of course you will have a choice. You either run gnome or you don't run Linux.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ppurka wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
Static -> HAL -> *Kit -> systemd -> ???
So what's going to come after systemd?
Gnome5. It will handle everything from grub to the UI in order to give you a "seamless" experience. Of course you will have a choice. You either run gnome or you don't run Linux.

At least it will have the long-awaited and at last properly implemented replacement of /etc. I imagine it should be binary, for the same reasons as Journal.
The only uncertain thing is name - what about calling it The Registry?
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sane handling of devices and services is a start, but until we get other basic infrastructure fixed, like graphics and sound, I don't really give a flying fuck about any desktop environment. Most of it is a bunch of useless crap, and there are far too many assumptions made which create unnecessary dependencies, which limit one's ability to have the environment one needs (which I think is more important now than ever, given the range of devices now replacing what had been "desktop" use cases).

It seems to me like Systemd, userspace device management, and all the "early userspace" stuff has all gotten out of control from an engineering standpoint and is creating a lot of unnecessary complexity which will, I'm afraid, come back to haunt in terms of security, quality, and flexibility.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gorkypl wrote:
ppurka wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
Static -> HAL -> *Kit -> systemd -> ???
So what's going to come after systemd?
Gnome5. It will handle everything from grub to the UI in order to give you a "seamless" experience. Of course you will have a choice. You either run gnome or you don't run Linux.

At least it will have the long-awaited and at last properly implemented replacement of /etc. I imagine it should be binary, for the same reasons as Journal.
The only uncertain thing is name - what about calling it The Registry?

Yeah! And it could be done in such a way as to be totally incomprehensible to users so that it becomes a complete mess they can't manage and which turns every system into a pile of shit after a few years of typical use.
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jd2066
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
gorkypl wrote:
ppurka wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
Static -> HAL -> *Kit -> systemd -> ???
So what's going to come after systemd?
Gnome5. It will handle everything from grub to the UI in order to give you a "seamless" experience. Of course you will have a choice. You either run gnome or you don't run Linux.

At least it will have the long-awaited and at last properly implemented replacement of /etc. I imagine it should be binary, for the same reasons as Journal.
The only uncertain thing is name - what about calling it The Registry?

Yeah! And it could be done in such a way as to be totally incomprehensible to users so that it becomes a complete mess they can't manage and which turns every system into a pile of shit after a few years of typical use.

Well to fair to Microsoft and the registry they created:
1. The registry was created when Windows 95/NT 4.0 were developed as a better alternative to PROG.ini files that were in %WinDir% in Windows 3.x and it does offer many features that are better.
Unlike the regular INI files were you can only store key/value pairs in sections you can store configuration in various types of values under many subkeys to organize the configuration.
The registry also supports using Windows Permissions on those keys just like you can on the NTFS file system to allow/restrict users and groups to certain registry keys.

2. The registry consists of multible registry hives located in:
"HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE" subkeys are stored in various hives in %SYSTEMROOT%\System32\config
"HKEY_USERS\[USERSID]" is stored in %USERPROFILE%\NTUSER.DAT
"HKEY_USERS\[USERSID]\Software\Classes" is stored in %LOCALAPPDATA%\Microsoft\Windows\UsrClass.dat
"HKEY_CURRENT_USER" is a link to "HKEY_USERS\[USERSID]" for the current user.
"HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT" is a virtual key that merges the contents of "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes" and "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Classes"

3. Most of the registry mess is cause by third-party drivers and programs that improperly use the registry.
I think part of this problem is because Microsoft made the registry so complex a lot of developers either don't understand how it works or care to spend the time to understand it when writing programs for Windows.
There is a lot of documentation of how to use the registry correctly and how it works on the Microsoft Developer Network (MSDN).

However, saying that I think that it was over engineering the problems with INI files, Microsoft could have simply created a more flexible plain text format that worked better then the regular INI files.
So in theory if the systemd developers do not over engineer the problems with udev, init systems, logging systems, etc. then a few binary files will not cause nearly as many problems as the registry in Windows.
On the other hand, systemd itself may already be over engineered for the problems being solved, I don't know for sure, I would need to read more about it to find out what problems they are trying to solve.

Edit:
The biggest issue with the registry is that when Windows boots it looks in the \System32\config for registry hives to load configuration for many things including drivers and if for instance the "SYSTEM" hive file is missing or corrupted then you can't boot Windows. However with Windows Vista, Microsoft improved the recovery functionality a lot as you can boot from the Windows Vista disc and select repair where you can use tools like Start Up Repair to automatically fix issues with the registry, the boot loader, etc and in Windows 7 the "Startup Repair" function is installed with Windows and automatically starts if Windows fails to boot to figure out what is wrong and fix it.
The second one is that after Windows boots the machine environment variables like %SYSTEMROOT%, %PROGRAMFILES%, etc. are loaded from the "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE" registry key and then when you log in, the per-user environment variables for %USERPROFILE%, %APPDATA%, %LOCALAPPDATA% and others are created based on information in the "HKEY_CURRENT_USER" registry key.
It seems to me that storing critical boot information in a couple big binary files is not a good idea but that is what Microsoft did and continues to do.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to me that systemd is to be the init system for GNU/Linux.

So far I am very impressed with it. Requiring it for Gnome, though, seems a little unethical.
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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

busybox' mdev....
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
busybox' mdev....

udev isn't just about device node creation. In fact, udev doesn't even do that anymore!

If you extend mdev so that udisks and upower can work on top of it, if you write the necessary stuff so that X will have input hotplugging capability without udev, then sure, you can mention mdev as an alternative.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm starting to get confused. How all these relate?

PolicyKit
ConsoleKit
udev
upower
udisks
mdev
systemd

?
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ppurka
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
I'm starting to get confused. How all these relate?

PolicyKit
ConsoleKit
udev
upower
udisks
mdev
systemd

?
Like this perhaps? (except for mdev, which is a Gentoo effort iirc)
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
I'm starting to get confused. How all these relate?

PolicyKit
ConsoleKit
udev
upower
udisks
mdev
systemd

?

You forgot dbus, cgroups, namespaces, syslog, readahead, device-mapper, devtmpfs, hotplugging, ACPI, grub ...
:P
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jd2066 wrote:
2. The registry consists of multible registry hives located in:
"HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE" subkeys are stored in various hives in %SYSTEMROOT%\System32\config
"HKEY_USERS\[USERSID]" is stored in %USERPROFILE%\NTUSER.DAT
"HKEY_USERS\[USERSID]\Software\Classes" is stored in %LOCALAPPDATA%\Microsoft\Windows\UsrClass.dat
"HKEY_CURRENT_USER" is a link to "HKEY_USERS\[USERSID]" for the current user.
"HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT" is a virtual key that merges the contents of "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes" and "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Classes"


Didn't think I'd find the comprehensive and useful information on how the Windows registry works (and where it stores all its files) on a Linux board. Funny how that works.
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
I'm starting to get confused. How all these relate?

PolicyKit
ConsoleKit
udev
upower
udisks
mdev
systemd

?

You forgot dbus, cgroups, namespaces, syslog, readahead, device-mapper, devtmpfs, hotplugging, ACPI, grub ...
:P
virtual-sys/bloat-base ?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I now have a Raspberry Pi running Arch Linux and guess what is the biggest memory hog on it? The fscking systemd-journal with currently 21MB resident size. 21MB wasted for something I won't ever need! And no, Poettering does not want me to turn it off. Perfect example of what happens if you break Unix philosophy ("do one thing and do it well").

PS: Yes, I do know that 21MB is not much for a normal machine, but for the Pi it is.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a lot for lots of ARM systems....anyway - 21MB used by a glorified logger? 8O
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yoshi314 wrote:
but i feel systemd takes over tasks that init should have been responsible for in the first place

The only thing init should be responsible for is initialising the system, hence the name. Managing services is for the RC system started by init. That's why init/rc doesn't crash systems, because they do one thing, and they do it very well, or in other-words, adhere to UNIX design principles (i.e. doing things sanely), and they aren't frivolously torn up and twisted around like systemd and all that other freedesktop.org brain damage.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember the days of devfs and things just working. Today we've got udev and its regular hiccups. Yay, progress! And userspace is always better. Yay.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsteven wrote:
I now have a Raspberry Pi running Arch Linux and guess what is the biggest memory hog on it? The fscking systemd-journal with currently 21MB resident size. 21MB wasted for something I won't ever need! And no, Poettering does not want me to turn it off. Perfect example of what happens if you break Unix philosophy ("do one thing and do it well").

PS: Yes, I do know that 21MB is not much for a normal machine, but for the Pi it is.

That's why this whole "freedesktop" project should have less influence over Linux (i.e. GNU/Linux) They're misguided and amateurish. The area Linux is experiencing the most success is on the plethora of small devices emerging. These guys are living in the past and mucking things up by moving away from modularity and flexibility into monolithic, ponderous, slogging, laptop-oriented bloatware that presumes resource scarcity (not to mention security) to be a non-issue.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsteven wrote:
I now have a Raspberry Pi running Arch Linux and guess what is the biggest memory hog on it? The fscking systemd-journal with currently 21MB resident size. 21MB wasted for something I won't ever need! And no, Poettering does not want me to turn it off. Perfect example of what happens if you break Unix philosophy ("do one thing and do it well").

PS: Yes, I do know that 21MB is not much for a normal machine, but for the Pi it is.
Hey Mrs. Teven, what you want is called Minix.
Seriously, check out item 3.7 of the Minix 3 FAQ. I can't wait to see Minix running on my Raspberry Pi (the one with 512 MiB of RAM, yeah).
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jd2066 wrote:
Well to fair to Microsoft and the registry they created:
...


Good intentions were never enough for good implementations.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a fresh Arch install the other day. My first time using systemd. It seems very fast compared to the old rc scripts. Also a lot more complicated.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
I remember the days of devfs and things just working. Today we've got udev and its regular hiccups. Yay, progress! And userspace is always better. Yay.
udev is the only noticeable change I can think of. And noticeable because of the problems it causes. Maybe the next "progression" with be toward jumpers and dip switches on cards.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
I remember the days of devfs and things just working. Today we've got udev and its regular hiccups. Yay, progress! And userspace is always better. Yay.

The winning combo for me was udev and HAL. Both were new and freshly implemented. I thought to myself, "This is it! The next-generation Linux desktop is here!"
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
I remember the days of devfs and things just working. Today we've got udev and its regular hiccups. Yay, progress! And userspace is always better. Yay.

The winning combo for me was udev and HAL. Both were new and freshly implemented. I thought to myself, "This is it! The next-generation Linux desktop is here!"


and as soon as people had figured HAL and udev out and everything worked nicely they had to abandon HAL and introduce thos *kits... and then uWHATEVER.
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Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
and as soon as people had figured HAL and udev out and everything worked nicely they had to abandon HAL and introduce thos *kits... and then uWHATEVER.

Yeah... That's when I started getting pissed at this whole thing.
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