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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:36 pm    Post subject: Merging: udev and systemd Reply with quote

I read on LWN that they're merging. Too lazy to link.
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nomilieu
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the link.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems like the pertinent info is in the title. Much appreciated.
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sts
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So nothing is changing except they are now built and packaged together.
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miket
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:58 am    Post subject: Did you read the news? "Udev and systemd to merge" Reply with quote

The unholiness continues. I just now read in LWN that the gang is planning to merge the systemd sources with the udev sources. What were they smoking?

The date of the article is April 3. It sounds like the stuff of April 1.

So what's next for systemd to assimilate? D-Bus? Apache? Emacs?

They *say* that distros which do not use systemd will still be able to compile udev separately. There is this statement in the article, and I sure hope that Kay Sievers is misspeaking a bit here:

Quote:
Distributions not wishing to adopt systemd can build udev pretty much
the same way as before, however should then use the systemd tarball
instead of the udev tarball and package only what is necessary of the
resulting build.


Really? Get the systemd tarball in order to compile udev? Is this a Freudian slip?
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der bastler
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can anybody give me a briefing regarding "systemd" (and perhaps "journal")? What are advantages/disadvantages compared to baselayout2/OpenRC?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fork.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: Did you read the news? "Udev and systemd to merge& Reply with quote

miket wrote:
Really? Get the systemd tarball in order to compile udev? Is this a Freudian slip?

Err, what Freudian slip? What's wrong with that statement? The projects are merged at the source level. So there's one tarball - systemd. From that tarball, you either compile systemd+udev or just udev.

Just to spell it out as clearly as possible: Nothing changes with this for end users! You just download a bigger tarball when installing udev. Big deal.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even if nothing changes from a user perspective right now, this is the first step to systemd doom on (almost) every box. Seems like in a few years all systems will be poisoned with that systemd crap, which then will also have merged Emacs (every init system needs a built-in editor, you know :wink: ), Wayland (for bootsplash), half of GNOME (no idea why, but merge it), NetworkManager, CUPS, syslogd, crond, atd and mysql (the latter for storing the system log in a nice, human-unreadable binary form). :roll:
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the project that caused the mess (udev) is merging with the project taking the wrong approach to solving the mess (systemd)? I don't see how this could go wrong.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

some corrections (imho) :

syslogd -> journal
crond -> systemd - time based service activation .i bet they'll come up with this soon, as they already figured out how to obsolete xinetd with socket based services

there is some neat streamlining going on that i actually like. systemd takes over responsibilities of various separate tools. of course there is a anti-unix philosophy argument, but i feel systemd takes over tasks that init should have been responsible for in the first place - stopping and starting services in any reasonable context applicable and not only bringing the system up/down without caring if a service fell over and needs to be restarted, or device required for its operation is available or not.

Quote:
Even if nothing changes from a user perspective right now, this is the first step to systemd doom on (almost) every box.
udev is pretty much a must-have, kmod too. dbus is fairly necessary too. policykit/udisks are nice to have, and could become indispensable someday.

some of what you mentioned already happened. why aren't you panicking yet?
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As long as it doesn't fail like NetworkManager (crashes when plugged into an IPv6-only router on Ubuntu and Fedora) then I'm fine.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They should get it over with already: merge pulseaudio in too, and rename the resulting mess to redhatd.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theBlackDragon wrote:
So the project that caused the mess (udev) is merging with the project taking the wrong approach to solving the mess (systemd)? I don't see how this could go wrong.

LMAO that is a classic quote :)

Kollin linked to the article in another thread:
kollin wrote:
Eeeewwww, udev and systemd are merging

http://lwn.net/Articles/490413/

*puke emoticon*


Where does he get off with "For us, compatibility is key." ? They've completely screwed backward compatibility for people's setups over the years.

One ray of hope: at last Council meeting, Chainsaw said he'd maintain any patches needed to udev to keep running with /usr on lvm2 and no initramfs. So I guess, especially given that Gentoo officially uses openrc, that Gentoo will be one of the distros taking just the udev part of the sources for the udev package (when not using systemd ofc.)
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also initially thought it was meant to be announced on April 1st, what a shame...

Ant P. wrote:
They should get it over with already: merge pulseaudio in too, and rename the resulting mess to redhatd.

...or just poeterringd ;)

Do notice that the next logical step is merging cups into the libreoffice source tree.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theBlackDragon wrote:
So the project that caused the mess (udev) is merging with the project taking the wrong approach to solving the mess (systemd)? I don't see how this could go wrong.


I have to agree, if my professors beat anything into my brain about computer science, it was to do it right the first time...

if they aren't careful they are going to end up shooting themselves like xfree did
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djdunn wrote:

theBlackDragon wrote:

So the project that caused the mess (udev) is merging with the project taking the wrong approach to solving the mess (systemd)? I don't see how this could go wrong.



I have to agree, if my professors beat anything into my brain about computer science, it was to do it right the first time...

if they aren't careful they are going to end up shooting themselves like xfree did


Like XFree did? How about they themselves have done? HAL, PolicyKit, ConsoleKit are all three must-have freedesktop.org projects that suddenly ended when the developers said "do over!" Trying out new ideas is one thing, but repeatedly plunging ahead with fresh-new stuff and demanding that all users act as beta testers is downright arrogant.

Compare this with Linux. Its maintenance proceeds at an amazing pace. I truly admire how Linus Torvalds manages all this potential chaos by keeping to clear principles about compatibility and the avoidance of breakage. A huge benefit of this restraint is that kernel upgrades are not occasions of huge outcry.

By contrast, churn seems to be a hallmark of the freedesktop.org release process. I'm afraid we've already seen how things will turn out with systemd: HAL started out as a good idea but got to be so large and unmaintainable that they just gave up. Doesn't careful software design have any role to play here?

The original author of HAL was Havoc Pennington. Without casting aspersions on him or his abilities, I point out that his name, Havoc, seems to characterize the freedesktop.org development process.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

miket wrote:
Trying out new ideas is one thing, but repeatedly plunging ahead with fresh-new stuff and demanding that all users act as beta testers is downright arrogant.

Maybe - but the real problem is that they are not punished for it. The big DEs jump on their solutions and the udev alternatives are lacking.
There are always people who complain about something they don't like. Unless alternatives pop up and people start mass-migrating … if I were a dev I wouldn't give a damn.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merged miket's thread.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2011-May/msg00427.html
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This post: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2011-May/msg00439.html really worries me:
Quote:
The future of GNOME is as a Linux based OS..
Linux isn't an OS. Now it is our job to try to build one - finally. Let's do it.

Where do they get off asserting that Linux is not an OS; what have I been running for over a decade? (And before you say "GNU/Linux" the statement implies that there is stuff they need to add that is not already available.)

It also implies they see their badly-designed bloatware as critical to what an OS is; and their developers are working on core Linux kernel software via udev and systemd (and all the stuff it needs like cgroups etc, where they do not seem to be interested in making sure things still work for users who do not use cgroups.)
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yoshi314 wrote:

there is some neat streamlining going on that i actually like. systemd takes over responsibilities of various separate tools. of course there is a anti-unix philosophy argument, but i feel systemd takes over tasks that init should have been responsible for in the first place - stopping and starting services in any reasonable context applicable and not only bringing the system up/down without caring if a service fell over and needs to be restarted, or device required for its operation is available or not.

In fact I do not directly have a problem with that. My problem is that applications will depend on systemd, its logger and/or its session management. Now, as far as I've read it, GNOME plans to depend on systemd for session management and drop ConsoleKit. This takes away freedom of choice, because now I am forced to replace my whole init system with something (probably) not well-enough tested. I also want my system logs to be human readable and not in a binary format. I'm afraid that someday I'll have no other choice than systemd and everything bad it brings with it.

Yes, I know, I can use another desktop environment than GNOME (in fact I do), but I fear KDE will also jump on the systemd bandwagon, especially with ConsoleKit being unmaintained now.

My problem is that Poettering and his friends are that arrogant about their software, they can't even imagine why someone does not want to use it. They push their stuff way to aggressively.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Static -> HAL -> *Kit -> systemd -> ???

So what's going to come after systemd?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Build it into the kernel?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Build it into the kernel?

So let's say that you and I were in the same area. About how far away do you suppose I'd be? Oh, and what's the wind like there?
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